Heian VS Pinan

[joesteph]

Because I know in Pinan 2 and heian nidan their are three high rising blocks (jo dan age uke, if you prefer). But in Pinan 2 they are strikes, and in heian nidan they are just meant to be blocks.

In Pyung Ahn E Ro Hyung (meaning the second of the Pyung Ahn, or as you're saying, Pinan forms), there are three high/rising blocks (sang dan mahk kee) in the first half, stepping to the first kihap, but on the way back, there are three middle punches (choong dan kong kyuk) to the second kihap.

Oops! I see my "name" error. What you're describing as Pinan 2 is the first in the Pyung Ahn series in Soo Bahk Do, called Pyung Ahn Cho Dan. The mistake I made is that I'm studying another hyung as well, the newest one for me, Chil Sung E Ro Hyung. That's how I made the name error, saying "Pyung Ahn E Ro Hyung," above, but no matter what number is given, the hyungs are extraordinarily similar. I guess each grandmaster decided a different order for these.

It's a long, rocky road to becoming a dan member.

[sensei8]

Ahhh ok. So heian means, peaceful mind, what does pinan truly mean?

While Pinan CAN mean, depending on the style/organization, "Peaceful Mind", Pinan can ALSO mean "Safe From Harm".

Every Heian is taught in numerical order; Shodan to Godan, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Therefore, why do you think that most Okinawan styles/organizations have chosen to teach Pinan Nidan BEFORE Pinan Shodan? I ask this because, my style is of Okinawan origin, therefore, our syllabus teaches Pinan in numerical order; 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.

The arguement that Pinan Nidan is easier than Pinan Shodan, imho, is poppycock, and therefore, it's of the styles choice as to what order Pinan's should be taught. What certain styles call Pinan Shodan is what others call Heian Nidan, and vice-versa. I understand their reasoning for this, but I don't subscribe to the believe that Pinan Nidan is easier than Pinan Shodan, imho.

[Traymond]

SO does anyone know why they made the heians from the pinans?...or was it the same thing when the Japanese changed the named from Passai to Bassai?

[bushido_man96]

I think the name change has something to do with moving from more of an Okinawan derivative to a Japanese derivative, but I can't be sure. Or, it may be to move from a Chinese influence to a Japanese influence.

[Traymond]

I think the name change has something to do with moving from more of an Okinawan derivative to a Japanese derivative, but I can't be sure. Or, it may be to move from a Chinese influence to a Japanese influence.

Ah I see, so it was pretty much the same deal with the Passai Vs. Bassai Deal. I find it funny how certain judges will deduct points from your score if you say it "wrong". I have had points deducted from me when I said Passai, and Bassai, so now I just roar it out completely inadherently...and no points get deducted, haha.

[bushido_man96]

That is kind of funny. But, I guess in the world of competition, anything counts.

[Traymond]

Yeah, I once got deducted for having my hair in my eyes...But oh well, their is some favoritism in everything I guess.

[Rateh]

SO does anyone know why they made the heians from the pinans?...or was it the same thing when the Japanese changed the named from Passai to Bassai?

I've always been of the understanding that it was the other way around....

That the heians and bassai came first....and the pinans and passai are the korean versions which came AFTER.

Maybe I'm wrong....but that's how I have understood it.

[Traymond]

Hmmm the history of the pinans have been around longer thats why they 'think' they are older, I use to think the same as you, until it was shoved into my face...I still dont always believe it...but in my opinion, the heians and Bassai are more respected in Japan other than Piinan and Passai since its more of an okinawan dialect, and if your style is widely japanese based that could be why it was directed in that way, as such it was in my case before.

[furry_Homeboy]

If I'm not mistaken, then when Gichin Funakoshi began teaching karate in mainland Japan (he was from Okinawa as well as most other karateka (especially teachers) at the time) there existed a slight discrimination against foreign things and at the time Okinawa was considered foreign. To help the people accept karate, Funakoshi changed many of the names to more japanese sounding variations. Hence he changed the Passai names to Bassai, Pinan to Heian, and also notably (though not a kata) he changed the kanji for karate from that meaning "chinese hands" to "empty hands". He also changed the pinan nidan to heian shodan since this one is often considered easier to learn and was often taught first.

Back to the Pinan/Heian katas, the creation of them is often credited to Yasutsune/Ankoh Itosu who designed them to help him teach karate. However, it can be debated about what he derived them from, and also just because they were a bit shorter doesn't mean they are any less meaningful. They changed a number of times throughout their history, but this was probably in the methods they were taught as well as the bunkai. It is likely bunkai was taught appropiately depending upon the students. Bunkai would probably not be quite the same when teaching elementary school students as when teaching adults.

Still, the bunkai can vary greatly as there are limitless interpretations of each movement and technique of the katas. Learning pinan yodan at one school could be different from learning heian yodan at another school, and both could still be different from learning pinan yodan yet again at yet another school. Bunkai changes not neccesary just from the name change, but just naturally. Also, each person is different and so katas will be performed slightly different by each person and taught differently in different schools.

Just some thoughts on kata and the pinan/heian.