Heian VS Pinan

[Traymond]

So, they are about the same, the movements are the same, the only thing that truly differs is the bunkai...

who else agrees with me on this?

[bushido_man96]

I think the true differences lie in Okinawan/Japanese differentiation. I think that there are some variations in the movements, from style to style, but otherwise, it has more to do with the languages and translations.

[Traymond]

Ahhh ok. So heian means, peaceful mind, what does pinan truly mean?

[joesteph]

So, they are about the same, the movements are the same . . .

I think that there are some variations in the movements, from style to style . . .

Although the posting is not necessarily concentrating on the Korean arts, I've found, from past studying of Grandmaster Son's TKD and Grandmaster Hwang Kee's Soo Bahk Do, that, though they're both Korean arts, and though they will incorporate very similar movements, they are not the same in their interpretation of Pinan. When extracting/interpreting bunkai (I hope I'm using the term properly here) from the form, the application will come out differently, so the combat moves will not be the same.

It may not seem like a great difference if in one, say GM Son's TKD, the knife hands are in middle position, and in GM Hwang Kee's SBD, they are in low postion, but their applications in blocking and countering (as I see in GM Son's TKD) and blocking and trapping (in GM Hwang Kee's SBD) are what you're to discover/extract/interpret and apply.

[joesteph]

Ahhh ok. So heian means, peaceful mind, what does pinan truly mean?

To the Koreans, Pinan has been called "Pyung Ahn" and means "Peaceful Confidence."

[Traymond]

Hmmm. So pinan is just probably the japanese term for peaceful, what ever to that effect?.

Because I know all the pinans and heians, and the movements are the same, I was just wondering if anyone had any difficulties differentiating between the two.

Because I know in Pinan 2 and heian nidan their are three high rising blocks (jo dan age uke, if you prefer). But in Pinan 2 they are strikes, and in heian nidan they are just meant to be blocks.

[joesteph]

Because I know in Pinan 2 and heian nidan their are three high rising blocks (jo dan age uke, if you prefer). But in Pinan 2 they are strikes, and in heian nidan they are just meant to be blocks.

In Pyung Ahn E Ro Hyung (meaning the second of the Pyung Ahn, or as you're saying, Pinan forms), there are three high/rising blocks (sang dan mahk kee) in the first half, stepping to the first kihap, but on the way back, there are three middle punches (choong dan kong kyuk) to the second kihap.

EDIT: I should have said Pyung Ahn Cho Dan--the first of the Soo Bahk Do, or, as you're saying, Pinan forms. It's Pinan 2 in your description, but the numbers don't mean so much; it's the content.

Edited December 19, 2008 by joesteph

[Traymond]

Yes thats how they are exactly, as well. And then their are four 45 degree angles movements, resulting in knife hand blocks,?

[Montana]

Ahhh ok. So heian means, peaceful mind, what does pinan truly mean?

Pinan means Peaceful Mind also.

As to the Pinan and Heian being the same...uhhh...yes, and no. The Pinan are much older and in my experience, considerably more indepth as to their bunkai that the Japanese Heian interpretations. Or so I've seen from the shotokan sensei that I've worked with. The movements of the Pinan bunkai are more subtle and with the slightest of changes, can be altered considerably in their meaning.

[joesteph]

Yes thats how they are exactly, as well. And then their are four 45 degree angles movements, resulting in knife hand blocks,?

Yes, Traymond, four, with these having one hand extended and low, as against a kick, but the other at the solar plexus. The extended hand is palm down, while the solar plexus hand is palm up. I remember the former Jo Kyo Nim (assistant instructor) explaining the way these could be used to block and even trap/counter the opponent's kick.

Now the form I'm describing is GM Hwang Kee's interpretation of Pyung Ahn Cho Dan, which is the first in the series, for Soo Bahk Do. In GM Son's TKD, and shown in his 1968 book, "Korean Karate," there are two knife hands at middle position, with a photo of a punch being blocked, not four low knife hand blocks. Yet GM Son has the blocking hand palm down and the solar plexus hand palm up, just as GM Hwang Kee uses for the low knife hand blocks.

Grandmasters, even if their martial arts are related, seem to have their own interpretations.