Blackbelts

[bushido_man96]

He did it although it took 2 attempts. He was nervous about this all day and just blew it on the first attempt

In my group, if you make a mistake or forget a kata due to nerves for example, its an instant fail. You don't get another chance on the day, in fact you have to wait at least 6 months before you are allowd to re-take.

This is because Dan gradings are as much about strength of character (as Seija says) as they are technique.

If you dont know your material well enough, and or can not manage the nerves, you are not ready to grade imo. You don't get another chance in a fight after all.

What do you guys think?

I think that there is something to that, WNM. From what I have heard through my instructor, things used to be more stringent in the system than they are now; board breaking is one example. 2 attemps, then you sat down. No change on the testing. I think that it is something that is seen less and less, and perhaps it should be kept around, especially at the black belt level. Keeping that level of expectation high for your high ranks only improves the quality of your schools.

[tallgeese]

Depends.

Mistakes get meade all the time during bb test. People get clocked sparring, simulations never go pretty, ect. What's more important is not stopping and improvising effective solutions as one goes. This is true on all belt test. It's the stopping or failure to perform anything that is problematic. As would be a clear inability to initiate an appropriate response. But not a simple mistake.

As far as where that line is, it really depends on what each school values the most. That's what they'll want to see the most and done the best. Ceratin other secondary skills may not be weighed as heavily.

I myself botched a kata (yeah, I did them at one time- very few, but I did them). And I mean bothced it on a black belt test. Like couldnt get past the opening moves, started over, did that sequence again and jumped right to the end few and bowed. I like to say that I finished the kata, my friends are quick to point out I started it and finished it, but did nt do it.

Still, kata's not really highly valued in the systems I study so it wasn't factored in heavily. My performance in the other aspects outweighed it. So it just depends on what kind of weight you place on each thing, and which ones you make the mistake on.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Depends.

Mistakes get meade all the time during bb test. People get clocked sparring, simulations never go pretty, ect. What's more important is not stopping and improvising effective solutions as one goes. This is true on all belt test. It's the stopping or failure to perform anything that is problematic. As would be a clear inability to initiate an appropriate response. But not a simple mistake.

As far as where that line is, it really depends on what each school values the most. That's what they'll want to see the most and done the best. Ceratin other secondary skills may not be weighed as heavily.

I myself botched a kata (yeah, I did them at one time- very few, but I did them). And I mean bothced it on a black belt test. Like couldnt get past the opening moves, started over, did that sequence again and jumped right to the end few and bowed. I like to say that I finished the kata, my friends are quick to point out I started it and finished it, but did nt do it.

Still, kata's not really highly valued in the systems I study so it wasn't factored in heavily. My performance in the other aspects outweighed it. So it just depends on what kind of weight you place on each thing, and which ones you make the mistake on.

I think one or two minor errors (ie not executing one kick out of say 10 very well) may be overlooked.

Botching a Kata, ie getting two moves into and forgetting it, is an instant fail in my group. Even if you restart it 30 seconds later and do it 100% you will still fail.

Pair Work is slightly differently - if for example you do these in the wrong sequence, you will not be penalised (unless you do it repeatedly which again shows lack of preparation), but you must demonstrate the correct tenets / principles of engagement that come with Kumite.

Kata is vitally important to most traditional budo and failure to execute it correctly is failure in your training at the end of the day.

But as you say its horses for courses I guess.

[tallgeese]

Yeah, it's just never been that important to any group I've been part of. Alot of schools in our organization don't even do any anymore, my group included.

So if you have to botch a part of any test, that's the one. It's still not looked well up on I'm sure. Now, conversly, if someone can't do the perscribed sd movments or continually fails to initate an inappropriate response, then you're in the automatic failure status with our group.

Luckily, most of our groups are small enough that people aren't even tested before the instructor knows that they will pass. I don't think we've ever ran into the failing issue on a test before. To keep this trend up, on e of my friends who teaches will even postpone test to make sure everyone is good, or only have certain people in a given rank test.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Luckily, most of our groups are small enough that people aren't even tested before the instructor knows that they will pass. I don't think we've ever ran into the failing issue on a test before. To keep this trend up, on e of my friends who teaches will even postpone test to make sure everyone is good, or only have certain people in a given rank test.

I think there is genuine merit in that approach tg, its a guarantor that your students are at the prescribed standard. Its just another way to the same result at the end of the day, but maybe its just me, but I think that a real fear that you "could" and "might" fail a grading is a positive driver.

Its the journey that you take to mitigate the risk of failure, and therefore become a better karate-ka that is perhaps the real winner here.

If a message is sent out along the lines that "hey, you know what you can mess up on your test... but they will still pass you!" then we are all wasting our time aren't we?

[tallgeese]

The test is simply an artifical standard of one progress. It's important, espically at a black belt level, i agree. But I think too much empasis is placed on them. In fact, I've taken to only testing for purple belt and up (so I actually test for purple, brown, and black).

The idea in testing that I've most often heard is that it places the trainee in a higher pressure situaion and makes him/her function despite the stress. That's a good theory.

But why only do this on test days. I think proper training should, on a routine basis, place the student under stressful conditions and have them perform. It's a large part of the theroy behind having people spar. Live drilling, spontaneous segments, ect, all also train this into fighters. Even at lower levels, students should be placed into limited live drilling with the skills they posses to place them under this kind of stress. It's an on-going process.

Besides, no fighter worth promoting will go into a test with a "so what" attitude. Espically one at black belt level.

In fact, breeding that kind of attitude is the kind of thing that's made me drop kata entirely from my teaching bag. I don't care for it, feeling that better training methods for the encompassed bunkai have been created and that attitude showed in my teaching. I don't take it seriously, anyone training with me wouldn't, and that would show in a test. They would merely rote movements used for testing, and that's the kind of thing I don't want to burn time on, but that's another thread all together .

[Wa-No-Michi]

In fact, breeding that kind of attitude is the kind of thing that's made me drop kata entirely from my teaching bag. I don't care for it, feeling that better training methods for the encompassed bunkai have been created and that attitude showed in my teaching. I don't take it seriously, anyone training with me wouldn't, and that would show in a test. .

I kinda know what you mean, but would also question how exactly you could profess to understand exactly how better training methods exist in order to "encompass" Bunkai. Particularly if you don't take kata seriously?

If "bunkai" is the bullet of karate then kata is the gun that fires that bullet. If you don't know how to handle that gun, well then you limit your chances of hitting the target imo.

Of course there are lots of weapons to choose from, but from a trad Budo perspective that tends to be kata (solo and paired).

[tallgeese]

It's been accepted for some time that the more realistic that you make training, the more useful it is in a high-stress fight enviornment. Therefore, paired, more dynamic training methods would be more valuable in nature.

You practice "hitting the target" by repping movments on mitts in a live enviornemt where both participants are moving. You spar with them, you armor up an attacker and use your movements against him. That's how you come to an understanding of using ma movements.

One dosn't have to do kata to understand movements that hurt other human beings. And that's what we're looking at, trying to hurt another person. The formal methods of getting there don't matter as much as the outcome of getting this done. It's just a matter of how to train for this most efficiently.

[Wa-No-Michi]

In SD /UFC etc., but if you want to study a trad ma you should do it the trad ma way imo (don't matter of you (tg) think its right or wrong).

Bunkai is a process that you can only understand if you understand kata.

Otherwise everything you are doing is "waza" technique, which is empty without true movement/purpose.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Also, we are on a karate forum aren't we? Karate is an art with a capital "A" that draws from the intrinsic qualities of the study of such, more than it does perhaps the perceived end result be that shiai / sd etc.