Leg kicks

[the beast]

Just a quick question to see what everyones thoughts are.

Should leg kicks be allowed in point sparring?

[joesteph]

It's a good thing I'm not into tournaments, since my kicks are right to the thighs. I was informed in the past that my kicks were "illegal" as they weren't above the waist; I've been informed now that I've returned to martial arts that my kicks aren't "illegal," but earn no points unless above the waist. Yet head and jump kicks earn extra points.

It's funny that this question was raised, in that I was in a discussion (I'm trying to remember which forum) in which it was advised to me that a good kicker is one whose kicks are effective, that they don't have to be high to be "good" kicks.

I think that, so long as no one's aiming for knees, a tournament should honor leg (thigh) kicks.

[bushido_man96]

I'm not so sure that leg kicks should be a part of "point" tournaments. Perhaps they could be, however, the problem is that too many people who don't practice the control with them could end up taking out a knee. And you wouldn't want to use thrusting kicks to the knee area, like side and front kicks, as they would be tough to control, not to mention the fact that the other guy may run into them at the same time.

For full contact, I'm all for them, though. I think the strategy of the low kick lends itself better to higher levels of contact.

[Ozpunker]

I'd have to say that I'm against leg kicks in tournys. In the tournaments that I compete in they are illegal (you can't even fake to the legs). In my opinion if legs kicks are permitted, people will get lazy and will start going for the easy leg kicks. Also I could see some trouble in determining a point if someone uses a leg check.

As far as full contact goes, I'm still not a fan. As BM96 said, it could end up in someone's knee.

[the beast]

I really think they should be allowed but not count as a point. I see no problem with setting up a technique with a leg kick, as long as it is not a thrusting kick, and for round kicks as long as their to the outer leg and above the knee.

In the tournaments I go to even leg checks are illegal, but groin shots aren't. I still can't figure that one out.

[DWx]

I don't think they should be for the same reasons mentioned above. Getting one to the knee would be too much of a risk for me and I think it would increase the chance of kicks connecting with the groin. I've always viewed point sparring as the sport side of MA anyway. Its not really that realistic but more a display of what you can do. Kinda like kinetic chess or even kinetic poker if you get what I mean. Most of it doesn't directly translate to SD but its about forcing your opponent to play a certain technique ready for you to get the checkmate or to win the hand. I do think that leg kicks could have theirplace in full contact though.

[joesteph]

I really think they should be allowed but not count as a point. I see no problem with setting up a technique with a leg kick, as long as it is not a thrusting kick, and for round kicks as long as their to the outer leg and above the knee.

Why wouldn't you award a point, Beast, even if it's the safer round kick? People like me just can't kick high enough to be above the waist, due not only to flexibility but height (I'm 5'6"). When I spar in class, the side and back kicks I throw are always at thigh level; the roundhouses are sometimes at thigh level, other times (if at an angle) just reach the ribs. It's just the front kick that I can use to reach the lower abdomen of my opponent.

By such rules, I'm a lousy kicker who can't score a point, even if they're non-contact (greater safety for my opponent), and even if my opponent isn't good at blocking/protecting against shots to his thighs. In a real-life situation (which I understand a tournament isn't), I'm chopping my opponent-tree right down.

In the tournaments I go to even leg checks are illegal, but groin shots aren't. I still can't figure that one out.

I've been reminded (after class) that leg checks and MT-style roundhouses are not in the style, but I think that my instructor isn't pressing about them as I'm not entering tournaments.

There are all kinds of rules I've heard of, such as Beast's reference to groin shots permitted but simple leg checks being illegal; one that I've heard of is that punches to the face aren't permitted, but kicks to the head are.

[Ozpunker]

I really think they should be allowed but not count as a point. I see no problem with setting up a technique with a leg kick, as long as it is not a thrusting kick, and for round kicks as long as their to the outer leg and above the knee.

Why wouldn't you award a point, Beast, even if it's the safer round kick? People like me just can't kick high enough to be above the waist, due not only to flexibility but height (I'm 5'6"). When I spar in class, the side and back kicks I throw are always at thigh level; the roundhouses are sometimes at thigh level, other times (if at an angle) just reach the ribs. It's just the front kick that I can use to reach the lower abdomen of my opponent.

By such rules, I'm a lousy kicker who can't score a point, even if they're non-contact (greater safety for my opponent), and even if my opponent isn't good at blocking/protecting against shots to his thighs. In a real-life situation (which I understand a tournament isn't), I'm chopping my opponent-tree right down.

In the tournaments I go to even leg checks are illegal, but groin shots aren't. I still can't figure that one out.

I've been reminded (after class) that leg checks and MT-style roundhouses are not in the style, but I think that my instructor isn't pressing about them as I'm not entering tournaments.

There are all kinds of rules I've heard of, such as Beast's reference to groin shots permitted but simple leg checks being illegal; one that I've heard of is that punches to the face aren't permitted, but kicks to the head are.

That's a rule that I have to follow in full contact. The simple answer is that it's easier to avoid a kick to the head rather than a punch. My opinion of this rules changes from time to time, sometimes I dislike it because it's too unrealistic and people often have fouls against them for punching to the head (It's such a natural reaction) but in some ways, I think it forces people to use MA techniques more. If a full contact event allowed punches to the head I don't see anything stopping boxers from entering and totally winning.

[bushido_man96]

I think the head kick/no hands rule is primarily designed to develop skill in kicking, and to keep a match from becoming a Boxing match or brawl. As far as what an "MA technique" is, I think any technique is an "MA technique," but that's another thread, I guess.

[tallgeese]

Another thread it is on that front, bushido man. I'll refrain.

ON the question of leg kicks, I'm always for adding more useful skills to the general body of practice. I'd think it was a good idea. I don't think a point for a well exectuted leg kick, one that lands squarely and solidly is out of line. The other guy always has the option to check it after all.

It's like anything else, if you've got a guy doing nothing but leg kicks, keep checking him to force him out of his game. It's the same idea as everything else, just a different location.

I agree that leg kicks would be of limited usefulness at less than full speed. However, this is true of all movements and a punch thown at point contact levels is equally non-sutiable for damage. Again, it's the same game, just a different target.

As to those odd rules, I'll bow out. That's how each organization wants to run their sparring, it's up to them. I will say that the potential of accidentally getting hurt with a leg kick to the knee is no greater than that of getting accidentally hurt when struck elsewhere. Most of the "injuries" you'll see at that level of contact are dings from shin to shin contact or something, these are rarely of any true signifigance.

As for full contact rules, I'd definatly say they have a place. It's an excellent entry shot and damaging to an opponants mobility over the long run. This is only help ful in employing more traditional tactics to win. Definatly a place for them there. Again, the risk of blowing out a knee from a MT rounds can't be any more than taking head trauma from a kick to the head at speed.