Mushin in Modern Combatives

[tallgeese]

Another thread got me thinking about this subject recently as to the role of mushin in combative arts. Traditionally, this is the "mind of no mind" concept that allows more instant response do to ingraned motion patterns.

That's great as far as it goes. But how has it been translated today. Here's my observations, thoughts and such. I'm interested tohear what others have to say on the subject.

It seems that the concept of mushin hasn't gone very far beyond the first sentence of this post in most cases. It seem everyone drills until they can flow thru a sequence of movements without preconeption. I think we can all agree that this is useful.

However, all too often I see the process stop there.

In fights, the circumstance change dramatically quickly and no one instance is exactly like the next. Because of this, one single sting of movements will work most effectively for all attacks, even similar ones.

So rather than just developing mushin in drills, we should also be stressing development of that flowing mind during spontanous training componants as well. I would even argue that this level of mushin is more important that the first since this is the ability that will allow you to move from tool to tool without thought- this seems to be the end result of training for a mushin response.

This way, you're not training to just effectilve regurgitate moves, your dynamically adapting to the fight and dealing with what it presents you.

Perhaps, my history on such matters is always rusty, this is what older schools of thought ment by it. It's just now what I'm seeing today as a whole in regard to the concept.

What does everyone else think?

[ShoriKid]

I think that a lot of emphasis has beenplaced on, as you said, getting through a sequence of moves. The ultimate goal is to get to the point where you adapt and move to whatever is going on without hesitation. Taking in information, reacting/actingwithout having to pass through the brain's processing unit.

So, i'm in agreement with you tallgeese. How to get there is the question. A lot of that work getting there comes from application in an environment that forces you to transition from one threat to the next. I think it starts with being able to flow through several series of techniques without hesitation. At the same time you should be learning to recognize several different threats. Once you've got good responces and an awareness of concepts for dealing with threats internalized, you s tart mixing them up in combative situations, presenting more than one threat.

One and two step sparring sort of half teaches how to respond to a threat in a flow. But, it stops too soon since that follow up punch never comes or the person never stops and goes for a clinch, or a second attacker is introduced. If it were, you'd see more of the mushin approach to fighting developed.

Or, I could just be rambling. I'm not sure if I hit on things the way your looking for tallgeese, but I think you have a very good point about too many people stopping at stage one of mushin.

[JohnC]

I'd offer that mushin, mind like the moon in water, etc doesn't come from knowing a lot of moves or combinations or from being able to more quickly do threat analysis (essentially left brain approaches) but from being able to stay in the moment / flow / rhythmn of the dance (essentially a right brain approach). In fact many of the traditional ways used to build mushin operationally are techniques to move thinking from the left brain to the right. Also one of the reasons westerners (whose current culture is so heavily left brained focused) have so hard a time with achieving this state, imo.

[joesteph]

Isn't there a common problem with lower belts (Oops! That includes me!), that they so mechanically, automatically, go through the self-defense technique that they don't realize it should be altered midstream?

By this I mean, suppose that in a real-life situation, defender (D) blocks the shoving arm of attacker (A), and then, according to the drilled moves, fires off a punch to A's face, then his midsection, and finally shoots out a roundhouse to A's ribcage. But while it is accurate that the block worked, as did the shot to the face, A moved back a step, meaning the midsection punch either fell short or only grazed, and the roundhouse--as A continued back another step--missed entirely. In other words, D had it down right in the dojo/dojang, working with a stationary partner, but did not "chase after" A for that midsection punch to land, or that roundhouse to make contact.

I realize that higher belts likely have the technique down and might be practicing such randomness, but lower belts would likely need more experience, even though, to all appearances, the self-defense technique is known.

[bushido_man96]

I've never been a big Eastern school of thought kind of guy, but I do think that mushin does have some establishment in our Western processes, in the form of training muscle memory.

With that said, I think that at times, as students we are told that we "should flow," and then its left at that. How? Teach me!

I think that this is probably realized by training in simple, repeatable, and adaptable methods in scenarios that would start out ideally (like one-steps), and then move into more dynamic training approaches.

That's my beat-around-the-bush idea, anyway.

[JohnC]

Without getting all mystical here, mushin is not simply having internalized combinations. It's a completely different approach and takes your game to a whole nother level. And there are some things that cannot be taught, they can only be learned. All the teacher can do is point the way. (Glad to get my metaphysics done for the day but I'm not being facetious with the above guys, believe me )

[tallgeese]

One thing I found helpful in the "learning to flow" catagory was randori type exercises out of aikido.

You can utilize the same kind of thing for training other things as well. For instance, even at a lower expertise level, you can get one guy in the center and set up two or three responses to a attack type. Then, everyone kind of randomly jumps in and attacks him with that attack.

Now, the guy in the middle, who has command of these to to three sets of counters reandomly allplies the ones that fit the best. Or even parts of them. If he gets hit, so be it, it's time to adapt and continue to move thru them. This will get you used to flowing between responses based on those tiny detail that change with each attack.

Even if a student only uses part of the response, that's fine, as long as it's an appropriate choice. Just and idea that we use for developing this kind of flow. With a limited amount of options, you can even start this kind of spontaneous training early during a fighters development.

[bushido_man96]

Without getting all mystical here, mushin is not simply having internalized combinations. It's a completely different approach and takes your game to a whole nother level. And there are some things that cannot be taught, they can only be learned. All the teacher can do is point the way. (Glad to get my metaphysics done for the day but I'm not being facetious with the above guys, believe me )

Hey John. I'm not sure if you were referring to my post or not, but it applies, so here goes....I don't simply mean internalizing combinations. That is part of it, but not the end of it. Its important to internalize the proper ways of moving, and learning to apply similar concepts to varying situations. Not just jab, cross, hook all the time on mitts. Perhaps I over-simplified the concept, but that was not my intention. I hope that this helps clarify what I mean. It doesn't mean that I'm not still wrong, though...

tallgeese: I have done a small sample of not randori in Aikido, but a more restricted, less random form of it. I do see the applications, and perhaps the better I get at it, the more I'll be able to work into my training elsewhere. Perhaps I can find a place for it in my Combat Hapkido curriculum.

[tallgeese]

Taking the concept and adapting should let you incorporate it really well in the Combat Hapkido. Take the tools you're using there and apply the concept. Remember to keep the idea of moving from one task to the next rather than getting bogged down in pounding on a target repeatedly.

You should be able to do this successfully I'd say. It's certainly a worthy project.

[bushido_man96]

I have had some different ideas floating through my mind lately, and perhaps will add this in, and try to mess with it a bit.