Need advice. Have things changed that much?

[tallgeese]

Wow, lot's o posts Should have checked back sooner.

Fist off, way back to John's question to my last post in regards to external discipline being need in a less combative school due to a change in the commitment level of being involved. I kicked this one around overnight since I hadn't thought about it. I'd say yes. This is probibly one of those cases where more external control by an insturctor or shcool structure will probibly help develop internal changes in diclipline.

As to what constitutes a McD....I'll steer clear. I'd agree however that a lack of sparring, or zero contact sparring is PART of what goes into that formula. It's not the only factor.

I've seen plenty of ma schools with less sparring and contact than I'd like, but they had good core movements for sd. Compare that to a real McD where there is no sparring beyond what amounts to aerobics and lousy sd movments as well as well as the fluffy health club atmospehere. Big difference in my mind.

As for me, self-development and improvement beyond combat arts has always been a secondary factor for running a training facility. I think it naturally outgrows from combative study. There is something about the develpment of highly dangerous skills that make people act more responsibily. However, I get to work with a pretty tight group now less than the general public so it's not so much a concern for me. There might very well be a need for some sort of education like this to be part of the framework for a school. I just dont have to worry about it much.

Well, I guess I dove into that issue anyway .

[bushido_man96]

I am a reluctant sensei at the best of times and although I address my seniors accordingly, to be honest as long as my students don't call me a rude name, they can call me what they want... inside or outside of the dojo.

I have always worked on the basis that if you, as an instructor; train hard, conduct yourself in the appropriate way and are honest, your students will respect you anyway - without you having to insist they call you sensei, sir maam etc. The same applies on a student 2 student level.

I agree with you here, WNM. I have tried and tried to get the guys outside of class to not call me Mr. Walker. I prefer my first name, or just Walker.

What is even more funny is that when I am at the Aikido class, the sempai there that tends to teach the Saturday classes, and did take the TKD class for a while, still called me Mr. Walker...in the class that he was teaching! I finally got him into calling me by my first name. But, at the same time, its nice to see the respect there, too.

[bushido_man96]

Lot of people these days tend to see it as just some for of exercise they do. That drives me insane, you're training to fight. Maybe in a life or death conflict, you'd better darn well get your head into the game and realize it and train as such.

I see this approach by people at times, too. That's when I adhere to my philosophy of "whatever you train in the MAs for, self-defense should be a side-effect of the training." In the end, the teacher decides if the student has put in enough work, effort, etc. in order to advance. So, I feel that in a way, we can control what they take from it. So, no matter what they like about the classes, I would try to make sure that they still take self-defense skills with them. If I can hide that fact from them until they realized that they needed and used them, then I guess I'm just that damned good!

[bushido_man96]

I would say that I bye product of joining some ma clubs is discipline, but personally I don't put it as a major priority in terms of the "added value" factor.

I certainly don't consider it as part of my job as an instructor to "instill" this in my students as an act by itself.

As adults they either have it or they don't.

As kids, well TBH thats their parents job.

Well, Wa-No-Michi, you and I see eye-to-eye on more things than we thought. I agree with you here, especially with adults. Not that I don't think anyone can change, but only if they want to, not if I want them to.

To echo Tiger, have we come to the point that the only reason to study MA and the only thing taught in MA is the HOW to beat up your neighbor and never the WHY you should refrain from doing so?

Your thoughts?

I don't really think that this is the case. At least, not that I have seen. As a parent, I think it is important to relay to our kids to respect our neigbors, and try to teach that accordingly.

[wolfgirl17]

Wow, I started this thread as a personal rant but the responses have been very informative. After reading various opinions and contemplating the situation myself, I have come to a conclusion. Yes, the martial arts have changed, but I have not.

I understand that instructors are running a business and to a certain extent they have to cater to the wants of the cliental but I will still maintain the philosophy that was instilled in my training. I just have to realize that I can’t force other people to accept this philosophy. When I guest instruct, I will still have students stand at attention and address the instructors and senior belts respectfully. I will voice my displeasure at sloppy etiquette and technique and I will have students do pushups if they are playing around and not paying attention when I am talking. Not because of a God complex or an ego issue, but because listening when someone else is talking is common courtesy and I feel that changes or not, some rudimentary concepts still need to be enforced.

I am old style and I do believe that corporal punishment (pushups, running, etc.) is appropriate in certain circumstances. It shouldn’t be overused or it loses its effect. But this is a “Martial” (Military) art and this encompasses a certain amount of military style discipline.

Tallgeese mentioned that discipline is based on ones ability to persevere, not forced repetition of “Sir” and Ma’am. Tallgeese, I agree with you to a point. All the sirs and ma’ams in the world won’t make someone a martial artists. However, most students don’t walk through the door with the “I will persist no matter what” mind set. That kind of attitude has to be molded. There are several ways to accomplish this. The way I choose to do this is to have a student first “change their mind”. I want them to walk into the classroom with the idea that this type of training is different. The difference in how I structure the class will hopefully help the person “change their mind”. They can immediately see and experience the fact that this is not simply an exercise class. By first experiencing and accepting a cultural change in outward discipline, my hope is that they will begin to change inward also. (It worked for me).

Ok, I’ll ease off of the “Kwai Chang Caine” philosophy. What it comes down to is that I will teach the way I teach and will accept that others also teach in their own way. I’m sure that some of the students will not like me and will dread seeing me guest instruct. However, I am there to teach them, not win their friendship. If nothing more, shaking up their “martial art world” every once in a while will broaden their horizons.

[tori]

I like your style wolfgirl17.

[Tiger1962]

Me too. You should not change who you are and you'll be happy to know there are still people out there who still like m.a. the way you teach it.

[NightOwl]

Martial doesn't necessarily meanthe military- most arts aren't meant for the battlefield. Traditional karate was supposedly quite informal, and Judo, BJJ, western martial arts, and old school kung fu if you've ever been to a place that practices them, usually are fairly relaxed.

Japanese Karate and its offshoots (like many of the Korean martial arts) tend to be more strict, but shotokan really arose during the militaristic days of Japan so that is to be expected. From where I been I have seen no correlation between a relaxed atmosphere and bad training.

[ninjanurse]

A late 2 cents: Many instructors today bow to the pressures of our "feel good" social environment and therefore lose sight of the positive impact that etiquette and discipline can have on students. "Old school" can be effective in the "new school" society we live in...it just takes a different approach.

[bushido_man96]

Tallgeese mentioned that discipline is based on ones ability to persevere, not forced repetition of “Sir” and Ma’am. Tallgeese, I agree with you to a point. All the sirs and ma’ams in the world won’t make someone a martial artists. However, most students don’t walk through the door with the “I will persist no matter what” mind set. That kind of attitude has to be molded. There are several ways to accomplish this. The way I choose to do this is to have a student first “change their mind”. I want them to walk into the classroom with the idea that this type of training is different. The difference in how I structure the class will hopefully help the person “change their mind”. They can immediately see and experience the fact that this is not simply an exercise class. By first experiencing and accepting a cultural change in outward discipline, my hope is that they will begin to change inward also. (It worked for me).

This is a good approach, and your reasoning does make sense. Very nice.

Martial doesn't necessarily meanthe military- most arts aren't meant for the battlefield. Traditional karate was supposedly quite informal, and Judo, BJJ, western martial arts, and old school kung fu if you've ever been to a place that practices them, usually are fairly relaxed.

Japanese Karate and its offshoots (like many of the Korean martial arts) tend to be more strict, but shotokan really arose during the militaristic days of Japan so that is to be expected. From where I been I have seen no correlation between a relaxed atmosphere and bad training.

These are good observations, too. TKDs emergence through the Korean military result in the type of discipline that translates to most TKD schools, like you mention about Shotokan. Gen. Choi, I am sure, had a lot to do with this. A relaxed atmosphere can still garner good training, as well. However, relaxed and disrespectful are not necessarily the same thing.