Need advice. Have things changed that much?

[Tiger1962]

My theory is you should make yourself know what you are getting into when you join m.a. and if you don't or have doubts, then speak to the head instructor before joining. Part of martial arts = discipline training. I knew that before I even joined.

When you sign up for martial arts, you have to be willing to accept the protocol and discipline that comes with it. I knew that different styles of martial arts had different degrees of strictness, but I just knew that if I wanted to learn it, I'd have to be willing to go through what I considered to be a normal part of m.a. training. So I began training and decided that if I didn't like all the formalities, I'd simply quit. You aren't drafted into martial arts, you join it. Obviously, the discipline and protocol part didn't bother me because I stuck with it.

Now over the years, it seems that the meaning of martial arts is changing with the less stricter rules...some may like that but I hope my school doesn't change because I think that (and I know I am repeating myself) discipline and protocol has always been a part of martial arts and in my opinion, should continue to be.

[JohnC]

Tallgeese,

In principle I agree, however I think you assume a rigorous training environment. Does your idea still hold if the student is in a dojo that never requires mastery to be promoted and plays at sparring or doesn't spar at all (e.g. the McDojo approach, which I'd argue is now the majority approach (unfortunately))?

[Wa-No-Michi]

My theory is you should make yourself know what you are getting into when you join m.a. and if you don't or have doubts, then speak to the head instructor before joining. Part of martial arts = discipline training. I knew that before I even joined.

When you sign up for martial arts, you have to be willing to accept the protocol and discipline that comes with it. I knew that different styles of martial arts had different degrees of strictness, but I just knew that if I wanted to learn it, I'd have to be willing to go through what I considered to be a normal part of m.a. training. So I began training and decided that if I didn't like all the formalities, I'd simply quit. You aren't drafted into martial arts, you join it. Obviously, the discipline and protocol part didn't bother me because I stuck with it.

Now over the years, it seems that the meaning of martial arts is changing with the less stricter rules...some may like that but I hope my school doesn't change because I think that (and I know I am repeating myself) discipline and protocol has always been a part of martial arts and in my opinion, should continue to be.

I would say that I bye product of joining some ma clubs is discipline, but personally I don't put it as a major priority in terms of the "added value" factor.

I certainly don't consider it as part of my job as an instructor to "instill" this in my students as an act by itself.

As adults they either have it or they don't.

As kids, well TBH thats their parents job.

In principle I agree, however I think you assume a rigorous training environment. Does your idea still hold if the student is in a dojo that never requires mastery to be promoted and plays at sparring or doesn't spar at all (e.g. the McDojo approach, which I'd argue is now the majority approach (unfortunately))?

Even if you "play" at sparing as you put it John, would you say that makes the club a McDojo?

I am not sure I agree that all clubs are falling down the "McD" pan, and I don't think that "protocol strictness"makes any difference in terms of the quality of training.

[Tiger1962]

Ok, point noted, and anyone who owns a school is entitled to run it the way they see fit whether or not its traditional.

However, if one is discussing traditional martial arts upbringing - back in the days, discipline, protocol and respect were definitely part of the curriculum, no matter the style - and I think some people still feel or expect that's how m.a. should be.

Is there anyone here who is very familiar with and / or studied the history of the old school style m.a. - - - they can verify if I'm on the right track or not.

[joesteph]

I would say that I bye product of joining some ma clubs is discipline, but personally I don't put it as a major priority in terms of the "added value" factor.

I certainly don't consider it as part of my job as an instructor to "instill" this in my students as an act by itself. . . .

As kids, well TBH thats their parents job.

I feel that parents who enroll their children in a martial arts school and take the time to be present, or have a relative present, are already working towards healthy discipline, and see a martial arts school not only as a place of self-defense and sport, but also as a forum where values are taught.

Just tonight, Michi, I ran into one of my (high school class) students, who was in the parents' section while her eight-year-old brother was in the children's class. There was some time before that class would end and the adult class would begin, and during that time she spoke of how well she felt he was behaving. She was proud, as he sat or stood properly, paid attention to the instructor, etc., and I know her (and her sisters), and can say that their family values healthy self-discipline.

I wouldn't say that you're teaching discipline for the family, Michi, but that you're working with the family in terms of the self-discipline that the children entrusted to you are to internalize. It also affords you the right to speak with parents that they must work with you if there is an issue to address. The teacher is not a baby-sitter but both a role-model and the person responsible in the "classroom," even if class is held in an MA training hall.

Perhaps this is how/why programs, like Chuck Norris's involvement in karate for at-risk kids, experience success.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Ok, point noted, and anyone who owns a school is entitled to run it the way they see fit whether or not its traditional.

However, if one is discussing traditional martial arts upbringing - back in the days, discipline, protocol and respect were definitely part of the curriculum, no matter the style - and I think some people still feel or expect that's how m.a. should be.

Is there anyone here who is very familiar with and / or studied the history of the old school style m.a. - - - they can verify if I'm on the right track or not.

It depends how you define traditional really. How far back do you want to go, as the way karate classes were taught has changed over time. Certainly as Karate grew in popularity (and by the time it reached the shores of Japan) in the early part of the twentieth century, teaching techniques became more "military" like in order to cope with the larger classes. Arguably prior this Karate was taught on a more personal level and for that matter there probably were no curriculums "back in the days".

As far as "Traditional" karate is percieved today however, my group is part of the Japan Karate Federation and I am fortunate to be able to train with the senior instructors based in Japan - It probably doesn't get more "traditional" than that. The structure of discipline is based on a hierarchical model ("Senpai / Kohai"). The Senpai is in command of his fellow students and he in turn does everything the Sensei requests of him and his troops. If any students need to have their knuckles rapped this is usually done by the Senpai, not the Sensei (as it is not his job).

Like most things Japanese it is very structured / strict to the point that I think the western mind struggles to grasp the need for it to this degree.

I suppose it does have a sort of "romance" to it and I can see why people would like it. I certainly don't ignore all of it at my club, but I just don't go the whole nine yards as it were.

I think to an extent some clubs go mad into it to somehow "authenticate" their karate, but as I said before my feelings are that as long as students and instructors have respect for one and other, the discipline comes automatically.

Joe,

I completely agree with you, and goodness forbid, I would never do anything or teach in such a way that would detract from this.

I have a question back to you then Joe... If you have a youngster join your group who is shall we say a bit wayward, would you consider it your job (if you were his instructor) to try and straighten him/her out?

Do you think that his parents have a right to expect that from you if they enroll him at you club?

[JohnC]

Had written a really thoughtful reply only to have the forum trash it due to its silly timeout rules. So, please forgive the terseness below, as I'm not going to take the time to rewrite all of it.

WNM,

Playing at sparring, imo, is one of the attributes of a McD. Another is lack of discipline amongst its students. Inattention to detail in personal appearance and not observing common courtesy (not to say formal protocols), to me, are outward signs of lack of self-discipline.

I wrote 'majority' not 'all'. As to "quality of training", I partially agree if the only objective is to train technique (jitsu). However, traditional MA always had a larger scope than jitsu in that it also was supposed to address development of character (do). Are you saying that the study of the way is no longer appropriate in the dojo?

Tiger,

I agree. I started training back in the early 60's. I didn't encounter these kinds of 'dojos' until the late 80's / early 90's.

WNM,

I think the point is that traditionally discipline / protocol was expected, however enforced, and I agree that its intensity is typically Japanese and that Americans usually have trouble with it , even when encountered in the American military, as Tallgeese brought up.

Standing in for Joe for a moment, both when I was teaching children and now when I talk with parents, parents continually bring up that a main driver for putting their kids in MA (instead of soccer or tennis) is so that they will learn discipline and values. This expectation is being met less and less as instructors basically say "it's not my job".

Back in the day, traditional MA didn't promote past shodan (1st degree black belt) based upon technical prowess alone. Character, citizenship, moral behavior, etc were also considered, even if one had a wonderful spinning back kick. This operational requirement of DO in addition to JITSU is one thing that made MA study different from doing boxing, wrestling, etc. and one of the reasons I started and have continued to study MA almost all my life.

To echo Tiger, have we come to the point that the only reason to study MA and the only thing taught in MA is the HOW to beat up your neighbor and never the WHY you should refrain from doing so?

Your thoughts?

[Wa-No-Michi]

Hi John,

I know how frustrating it is to loose a post due to being timed out. As a precautionary measure I usually take a copy of the text just in case.

As for thoughts, I don't disagree with anything you have said, but I do think that it can be taken to the extreme and can dominate the dojo.

As for the Do vs Jutsu argument, well thats an entire thread by itself, but I agree that a well run "functional" Dojo should, and will engender good character and of course the "ultimate" goal of a lot of ma is "self improvement" mine included.

It is my belief however that you can promote all of the above, without having to run a club like a boot camp. I think you get better results actually.

[joesteph]

Joe,

I completely agree with you, and goodness forbid, I would never do anything or teach in such a way that would detract from this.

I have a question back to you then Joe... If you have a youngster join your group who is shall we say a bit wayward, would you consider it your job (if you were his instructor) to try and straighten him/her out?

Do you think that his parents have a right to expect that from you if they enroll him at you club?

I would follow the lead of my own instructor last year, so that the answer would be "Yes," Michi.

One of her students was constantly in trouble in school (eighth grade, so age fourteen), and all for wayward things that reflected a lack of social skills and the wrong friends, not for something on the level of bringing a weapon to school, etc.

His mother spoke with my instructor; the mother was not present during the entire class when her son was on the dojang floor, but would be there for the last (say ten) minutes. This allowed my instructor to confer with his mother fairly regularly.

My instructor worked at keeping him focused, whether it be re-doing the entire hyung from start to finish until he took it more seriously, or enforcing that he must bow and use "Yes, Ma'am" and not nod his head and say "Yeah." Personally, I do not care for corporal punishment, but this youngster would arrive late, receive ten pushups, try to get away with nine, and then have to redo the ten. He began to arrive on time. He was given chores (which makes me think there was a tuition break, but I've never asked) such as cleaning mats with soap and water, cleaning the wooden dojang floor with broom and mop, and sorting the targets at the end of class. He discovered that it was best to do these chores right the first time.

Whenever possible, my instructor gave him one-on-one time, and arranged for a young dan member to work with him as well. He got friendly with other karate students his own age, kids who simply didn't get into trouble. The grade school "troublemaker" began to arrive early enough to volunteer to help with the children's classes. His mother reported a marked improvement in deportment in grade school. When it came time for testing, he not only passed, but did something extra with his karate friends--a short demo, so-to-speak.

He was with us for the first half of the summer, then lived with relatives (Florida) for the second half. He's in his first year of high school now, and though he no longer takes karate (I think he became interested in a high school sport, but I'm not sure), he did touch base with my instructor. The last I knew, he made new friends in high school and was passing all his courses.

I'm a high school teacher myself, Michi, in my thirty-fourth year of teaching social studies. I'm very fortunate to be teaching in a college-prep school, but "challenging" students do come along, and it's just par for the course that I work with the parents. My instructor working with this student's mother, concentrating on his deportment, is no surprise to me. Every teacher takes the place of the parent when children are entrusted to our care, and it often means more than the stated curriculum.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Thanks Joe,

Well full credit to your instructor, but personally I am note sure that I would be happy to have to do this. Of course all teachers are parents by proxy, and we all want what is best for the kids (I am a Father of 2) but like you, I am not one for corporal punishment as I think there is risk that it can backfire.

I suppose I would go the extra mile on the odd occasion, but tbh I don't have the resource to lavish too much attention on one child too often. I have twenty other children in my class that are deserved of equal amounts of my attention.

By the sounds of it though, his fellow students did a great job in making him feel that he was part of the club and by being accepted, he began to enjoy his training and applied himself to it.

This is exactly the model that I try to promote. Some times the big stick approach isnt the best way.