Need advice. Have things changed that much?

[wolfgirl17]

I’m a 4th degree master and have been training for over 30 years. I ran a club about 10 years ago. My job situation changed and I did not feel I was giving the club the attention it needed, so my senior student too the club over. He ran it for about 4 years until he retired and moved away. He passed it on to the next senior student who currently runs the club. The club has been in business for a long time (I started training there 32 years ago and it had been in business many years before that). It is passed down from student to student. The instructor currently running the club (I’ll call him “Kevin”) is a 3rd Dan and is an old friend of mine. Things have calmed now at work and he has asked me to return to the club to teach the kids class. I also make guest appearances in the adult class and teach the adults when “Kevin” is not available. Here is my problem . . .

First, I understand that teaching 3-6 year olds is different than teaching adults. I teach the children with games and play and my goals are to instill focus and listening skills along with martial art concepts. However, I feel that the older kids / adult classes are different. Adults are not children and although the adult class should be fun, it is serious fun.

The way my instructor taught me and the way I taught my adult students when I ran the club was I guess, “old style” teaching. Students stood at attention, they addressed instructors and senior belts with Sir or Ma’am. No one got their feelings hurt if an instructor raised their voice. Students were expected to learn the class rules and were reminded either verbally or physically if they failed to follow them.

What I am seeing now is a watered down version of Martial Art Aerobics. All of the classes are run like the tiny tot classes. I don’t think the adult students even know what an attention stance is. Students regularly talk in class and they walk through their movements. Tonight I was guest teaching the adult class and I raised my voice because as they were doing basic movements, half of the class was looking everywhere but where they should have been focusing. I heard several people outwardly gasp because I voiced my displeasure at the lack of focus. When I had two students do a few pushups because they were not listening when I was talking, you would have thought that I had beat them with a stick.

I know I haven’t taught in awhile, but are current martial art classes being taught like recreation center dance classes? Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe in openly berating students, but isn’t the first priority to teach the students to be mentally and physically strong and focused? Have things changed that much in the last 10 years? When did the warm and fuzzy concept take over?

[JohnC]

Short answer is, in my opinion, yes, things have changed that much. Unfortunately.

[joesteph]

I've never run a martial arts school, Wolf Girl, but I do remember when, as an adult twenty years ago, I took adult Tae Kwon Do classes. The instructors were addressed by first names. I'd previously been tutored in Isshinryu by a friend, so I hadn't the background in an adult martial arts school setting in which Sir or Ma'am would be used. I did take adult Taiji classes after TKD, and our Sifu preferred to be called "Mr. __" rather than by first name or Sifu (and Sir never came up). I adjusted.

When I started my children in Soo Bahk Do, I not only discovered that they were to call their instructor Master ___, but the children's class before theirs has everyone calling her Master, Ms., Miss, and Ma'am. Her age? She was twenty-four when they started with her, turned twenty-five . . . and though she had introduced herself to me by first and last name (w/o a title), I have always made sure to call her Master ___ when anyone is around, kids or adults. That's another thing; there are parents present when the kids have class, and they address her as Master or Ms. (I've heard her "threaten" a student with a "time out"; I've even heard her ask a student if s/he wants to "go sit down" [which would mean with the parent].)

In the adult classes, the age can go down as low as twelve, and I admit she's given corporal punishment (pushups) to twelve-to-fourteen year olds, but this is not a regular procedure as students are regularly cooperative.

When I began to start studying under her, I had no problem addressing her as Master or Ma'am; other adults call her Ms. or Ma'am.

During the time that you were not instructing, Wolf Girl, were you occasionally visiting during classes? Did you discover during this past decade that the instructors had become lax with the formalities, even with expecting the focus students of all ages must maintain (e.g., this is not "let's chat" time)? I'm suggesting, with my background not as a teacher of martial arts but as a teacher in a secondary school, that this developed slowly over time, and that now it's an issue to be addressed.

I hope this will not sound improper, but I'm afraid that the tight ship you left others to run has not been governed up to expectations. These are good people you entrusted it to, I am certain, but the path of least resistance may have been the one that they have been taking during this time period. And it is very difficult to regain that discipline.

Edited December 12, 2008 by joesteph

[bushido_man96]

I don't think that the overall approach has changed that much...at least not where I have trained. Perhaps I have been fortunate.

Personally, I'm too big on the Master, Mr., sir/ma'am stuff. I do it at school I train at, but I have seen at the Aikido club I train at, things are a touch looser. BJJ schools, from what I have heard, are all on a first name basis, too.

However, I think you can still do things this way, but still demand the focus and attention needed to teach effectively. If you need to use the sir/ma'am approach to establish that focus, then I say go ahead and use it.

Attention and focus are important for just about any kind of training, in my opinion. It sounds to me like the instructor there now is more interested in being everyone's friend, as opposed to teaching them.

[Tiger1962]

Short answer is, in my opinion, yes, things have changed that much. Unfortunately.

I agree. You don't hear of many schools (at least I don't) anymore that teach the old school way. By old school, I mean, using the sir or ma'am to address your teacher or by their title.

Wolfgirl17 - my spouse & I both train and sometimes we are there at the same time but in class we call each other "sir" or "ma'am" or Mr So&So or Ms So&So and neither of us are Masters or teachers. This has nothing to do with ego or not being humble either; we feel that in a martial arts school, one should behave accordingly. I think certain protocol distinguishes one school from another. I never, ever call my instructor by first name - heck - not even outside the school - not even if I address a Christmas card! But that's me - I know of other adults who use the first name of our instructor when not in the school. I suppose if I was "after-school" personal friends with my instructor and we hung out regularly after hours, I would use the first name, but then when we are in class, it's back to formalities. Some people have a hard time turning it on and off; but I don't. Even if both me and my spouse owned a school together, we'd make sure that we would behave in protocol with each other while in the school because for starters: that's the way it should be and secondly, students are watching. If they (especially the young ones) see the instructors or school owners acting casual with each other, they WILL imitate. I've seen this happen at other schools where two relatives or a couple own a school and they're casual with each other in the dojo and you can see the "trickle down" theory if you just quietly observe their students behavior.

In my opinion, I think it's a disgrace - martial arts should be run like martial arts, not like an aerobics class. And what the other posters above mentioned is true. Unfortunately, I don't know how you can "get it back" unless you took over again full time. Perhaps a "talk" to the students about this might help, but it seems now that they are so used to the casual manner since you left, it would be difficult to change.

[tallgeese]

Change, yes. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, sometimes it's really indifferent and a matter of personal taste. The trick seems to be weeding out which is which.

I've certinly seen a trend to the more informal in alot of circles. This is fine with me, but that's just me. I've also seen a lack of commited mindset training takeing over. This is unacceptable to me. It depends on what you're willing to (and what's worth) fighting to keep.

Lot of people these days tend to see it as just some for of exercise they do. That drives me insane, you're training to fight. Maybe in a life or death conflict, you'd better darn well get your head into the game and realize it and train as such.

I think that's part of the reason I've gravitated to trianing at mma places over the past few years. They get what they are doing and do it to max effort. I think that you can take that training atmosphere and really apply it to a sd class.

So yes (back on topic) there have been changes. Warm and fuzzy is everywhere. People like denial over the reality that they may have to someday deploy thier skills in an enviornment where they could die.

[tori]

We are to address our instructor by his proper title inside and outside of the dojo. We also do this for all black belt ranks. I would never talk when my instructor is talking. If someone is doing this, he yells, "Do not talk while i am talking." Makes you stop right now. Martial Arts is different than other sports. The discipline and respect needs to be there. A dojo is not a weight lifting club or a gym. Unfortunately, many places are being run that way.

[JohnC]

Perhaps this can be generalized a bit by asking a slightly different question: An aspect of MA training is the development of self-discipline in the student. Many of the protocols in traditional MA have this as an operational goal. Now that such approaches are considered passe or politically incorrect, how do you teach self-discipline to your students? Or, have you simply removed it as an operational goal putting the development burden fully on the student instead?

[tallgeese]

I think you have to look at the whole, intrensic and extrinsic disciplie model.

Externsic disciplie is that which is forced upon you, you will be diciplined in your training as long as you have a larger authority overseeing your actions.

Intrensic diclipline on the otherhand comes from within. It will occur regardless of who is watching or what the punishement may or may not be.

Obviously, the second is most desireable. And it's also a given that the first can lead to the second. However, alot of studies (I can't quote them right no w, grad school's been awhile) show that this is largely based on how valuable those being externally forced feel that what they are doing is. Additionally, external disclipline seems to work on a large level, where sheer numbers mandate a less personalized approach (ex. military service).

But, if a student is willing to stay with a class for x years, he or she probibly already sees a high level of value in the class and are going to develop internsic disclipline on their own in reagards to ma training.

Extrensic work may have a place in some circles, but I feel the development intrinsically is more important. To do this, I think the best way is to let the student get their on their own.

Disclipine, in regards to the ma, is (in my opinion only) based on one's ability to get up off the matt time and time again. To keep coming back week after week despite the digs and injureis incurred along the way. To put up with the constant mental stress of fight training and come out the other side a more seasoned combatant. That's the kind of thing that will develop the kind of discilipline that we're looking for to carry on the ma's. Not forced repetition of "sirs" and "mams".

Just my view.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Disclipine, in regards to the ma, is (in my opinion only) based on one's ability to get up off the matt time and time again. To keep coming back week after week despite the digs and injureis incurred along the way. To put up with the constant mental stress of fight training and come out the other side a more seasoned combatant. That's the kind of thing that will develop the kind of discilipline that we're looking for to carry on the ma's. Not forced repetition of "sirs" and "mams".

I agree with your sentiments here tg. I am a reluctant sensei at the best of times and although I address my seniors accordingly, to be honest as long as my students don't call me a rude name, they can call me what they want... inside or outside of the dojo.

I have always worked on the basis that if you, as an instructor; train hard, conduct yourself in the appropriate way and are honest, your students will respect you anyway - without you having to insist they call you sensei, sir maam etc. The same applies on a student 2 student level.

With the children at our clubs, it is often the other adult instructors who will refer to me in the third party as "Sensei" and without prompting, most of the children refer to me as such (not that I insist or am that bothered if they don't). Children seem to be more at home with title / rank thing. I would say it helps actually.

Adults are different IME and if they choose to refer to me by title in the dojo (not that I have one really) they can, outside though, I will insist they call me by my first name, and that goes with the kids too.

I am quite relaxed this way as I tend to think time is better spent doing good Karate rather than worrying too much about un necessary protocol. As long as you train safe, well and with good respect... no problem.

Each to their own though.