Knife Position

[tallgeese]

Hey everyone, just getting everyone's thoughts on knife presentation, or how you primarily hold the weapon during drilling. I'm not referencing som much as how you practice defending against it (although feel free to comment on that as well), but more on how you primarily utilize it defensively for yourself.

For instance, do you mainly work with the knife in a traditional blade out posture or in more of an "ice pick" hold, regardless of what angle you choose to attack from.

For me, coming out of the arts I've spent time with, we use mainly the blade out position. This allows better opportunities to "defang" so to speak, or make cuts to the structures allowing an opponant to hold his own weapon. It's also the grip that most naturally one falls into, even when presenting a folder.

I think that some reverse grip work should be done, espcially in regard to facing longer weapons while utilizing a knife, and combinations should be learned from that position and practiced. I just see the blade out posture as being more useful.

We also try to keep the presentation hidden until the weapon is deployed.

Any other thoughts on the knife presentation or grip? Who uses primarily what and why?

[bushido_man96]

Knife work is something that I would love to have more experience in. If I were to try anything, it would most likely be from the sword grip position, due to my inexperience with the weapon.

[Tiger1962]

Knife drills are part of what I train in and when we were taught them, we were shown several ways to hold the knife; ice pick style - as you call it - being just one way, plus several other ways. It's helpful to know all the possible ways an attacker would hold a knife.

In addition, we're shown ways to deflect / defend that knife attack & from each of the different holding patterns. Again these are standard requirement drills and in a real life situation, one would probably modify / add to them.

In my opinion, I think the average person would either hold the knife either "ice pick" style or gripping it with the thumb & index finger being the leading fingers and the remaining 3 fingers gripping the handle (this is hard for me to explain - LOL) but I think if you visualize it you'll get it.

[JohnC]

To sword grip and ice pick, I'd add blade up or blade down (assuming single edged) as the offensive / defensive moves change a bit, as do the available targets.

Similarly, reverse grip (modified ice pick) for hiding the weapon or bringing it online for close work is something we practice against (both offensively and defensively).

[joesteph]

Since those who've posted have done "defense against the blade" training, let me ask a question, simplified to overhand and underhand grips by the assailant.

Do you believe that the larger the blade (think of a "commando" knife), the greater the chance it'll be an overhand attack, and that the smaller the blade (think of a switchblade), the greater the chance of an underhand one?

[JohnC]

I'm not sure I'd focus the question like that. The purpose of a weapon is to essentially extend range and act as a force multiplier. Thus, each weapon has an appropriate range and technique set for its use.

For example, a machete doesn't work very well in an ice pick grip due to its size and shape (not to be confused with reverse grip). But, similarly, a Bowie knife wouldn't work well in an ice pick grip if the opponent is really close for the same reasons. Finally, a pocket knife usually won't work very well at distance.

Thus, the way it's used is more based in the situational dynamic, objectives and the knowledge / skill of the wielder (critical, as most folks don't 'train' knife fighting skills).

First pass response.

[Tiger1962]

JohnC explained it very well.

There's also a sweeping motion attack from left to right (or right to left) of a knife attack. Personally, I think the size of a blade will determine how the attacker holds it - but hey, you never know how their mind works & what their skill level is (as JohnC said) so I wouldn't bet on a certain method.

Examples of different attacks that I know of are:

Overhead (ice pick)

Underhanded

Left to right (and reverse)

Straight in (from the waist / hip)

I was fortunate enough to have the opportunity several years ago to take a knife fighting seminar and the person who taught it knew all the different knife fighting methods - "knives" were his specialty. One of the methods he demonstrated was the Filipino Combat Knife Fighting style - - this was VERY interesting to me and YouTube has plenty examples of this if you wish to see it. If knife defense and fighting are your thing - I recommend taking a look.

[JohnC]

As an aside, an interesting exercise is to use either one or two blades in reverse grip (outside edge of the blade pointed outward, back of the blade laying against your forearm) and then start in a standard boxing format (knife handle being used like a roll of quarters), bringing the knife (knives) online for slashing, poking and chopping as openings present themselves, while still using punching moves as appropriate. Thing that's interesting is how you'll fall into some of the fancy filipino moves naturally as simply doing 'continuous flow' feelings. Remember to return to boxing guard as you would do normally in a boxing match (the return move enables knife attacks many times). Obviously, punches can many times be replaced with knife attacks also. Don't be too serious, just have a little fun playing with it.

Just a thought.

[tallgeese]

You hit on a good training point here, the more that your knife training can mimic the same movements used in your unarmed strategy the better. This allows a good continous build of skill.

This also goes to advanced stuff as well. Trapping and parrying will often lend themselves well to raking with the blade.

[ryukasagi]

I hold my knife in the more traditional way generally close to my body to lessen the chances of the tendons in my hand getting cut so i can't hold the knife anymore and with it pointed at my opponet.