Should instructors teach what the student wants to learn?

[Tiger1962]

I think an instructor should first teach what is required of the style / school /organization that the student is studying.

Once meeting the requirements and curriculum, if the instructor then wants to teach things that are not normally part of the particular style, I have absolutely no problem with that, providing the instructor is fully knowledgeable in it and isn't trying to pass himself / herself off as an "expert" in this extra teaching, when he/she is not AND if the student wants to learn it. (meaning - make it optional and not mandatory)

[ShoriKid]

Teach what you know first. Sounds stupid and simple, but a lot of people get carried away with trying to teach things that are hot and cool and don't cover what they really know first.

The style I train in right now is an amalgumation(I know I spelled that wrong) of traditional systems with a heavy flavoring from hard won experience in the ring and an eye toward applicability. We aren't saying we reinvented the wheel, just that certain kinds of tires work best on certain kinds of roads, so make the right choice. I think it's not so much what you teach from your tradition, but how you teach it. As others have said, the human body only moves in certain ways and has the same strengths and weaknesses now that it did 1000, 500, 100, or 10 years ago. But, I can take that same, traditional reverse punch and teach it with the modern mind as a guide. I don't mean I teach anything different, just that I try to make the application and variations clear from the outset. Such as, you don't have to drop into a horse or forward stance to through this punch. You don't have to chamber all the way back to the ribs/hip, but you need the hip torque and rotation from a stable stance.

tallgeese, we gear up about as much as we can, but the cost of a redman, which I don't like for the severe loss of realism through speed/movement/reaction, do you have any suggestions on good gear to look into? Going a little harder would be nice on ocasion and really teeing off on someeone without having to worry about damage at all in striking would be a treat. We have to make some compromises for safety and it would be nice to get the chance to really drill some of what we do without fear of causing injury. The newer folks could really see more of what they are doing since they could go from low speed learning, to high speed, high power more quickly. We start with mma style training gloves, boxing head gear, shin guards and I think we still have our vests, but we rarely use them. Blauer's armor looks great, with the best mix of protection and mobility, but the cost is not easy on a small club without a large student base to support the cost.

[tallgeese]

Agreed, the between the high cost of a redman and the loss of realistic mobility (lets face it, your attacker kind of moves like a zombie) it's pretty prohibitive for most clubs.

Our DT program at the dept. just bought one of Blauer's suits and we've got some training planned with it come Feb. I'm looking forward to seeing if it's worth it's equally obnoxious price tag.

As for what I use for gear regularly, full armor will usually include:

A caged set of head gear (Pro Force makes a decent model, good cage and well built, great price- a little shabby on the padding but nothing is perfect)

I have also, on occassion, substituted at full faced motorcycle helmet for head gear. It has it's uses but I wouldn't go out and get one specifically to use.

Kempo gloves (again, I go with Pro Force, they've lasted the best of models I've had) This let's you not only strike with more padding than mma gloves (which will get used occassionaly as well), but will also protect your hand for knife v stick or knife v knife training.

Knee and elbow pads. These are a must, first for padding during contact for uke-san, second for your own protection if weapons are being used. I've used all sorts over the years, just try to find some that work well and actually stay in place. For me, anymore, they have to fit over my knee sleeves as well .

Shin gear is also a good idea for heavy sim beat downs. This lets you throw hard on quads with less fear of crippling people for the next days work.

And of course, a good wrap under cup. Don't leave home without it. Yes, we allow groin attacks during this type of thing.

Even with this stuff on, you'll still have to watch contact to some areas. The c-spine, the groin both come to mind. Also what the gouging to the eye area, even with the cage on simulated striked can still slip thru.

It's actaually a good idea to have an outside person serve as a kind of referee to this type of training. Not to score points and such, but to remind eveyone in the heat of whaling away on each other to not poke each other eyes and such. It's a good safety net.

Most of the time, I'm barefoot. I will usually put on wrestling shoes for this sort of thing, just so I don't get a toe seperated in the insuing melee. We have had vests in the past, but I've never found one yet that was worth it when you weighed how much it actually protected you vs. how much restriction it placed on my comfort and movement.

That's just kind of the over view on what we use.

[JohnC]

I saw a new full body suit in one of the mags. It isn't a RedMan but is put together piecemeal from existing stand-alones (e.g. shin guards, head guards). This means there are gaps in places (e.g. hip joint) so mobility should be increased but still offer adequate protection for training purposes. Off hand it looked reasonably good. Next time I see the ad, I'll try and get a price. I'd hazard it would be significantly less than RedMan, et al.

[joesteph]

I saw a new full body suit in one of the mags. It isn't a RedMan but is put together piecemeal from existing stand-alones (e.g. shin guards, head guards).

John, is this from AWMA? It's even shown in red, if this is the one. You put it together by buying the components. I like that, when complete, it covers the outer thighs as well as other areas we expect to be covered, because nowadays "below the belt" is okay if it's a Muay Thai-style kick to the upper leg.

I wonder how many of us who weren't good kickers, or were not considered good kickers, in the past would be fine nowadays because of this to-the-thigh roundhouse?

[JohnC]

Now that you mention it, that is the one I saw. Looks like what they're doing is taking a bunch of ProForce sparring equipment and putting it together. Total price tag would probably be in the low hundreds for a complete set. RedMan Suits apparently cost around $1,000 and, as mentioned above, mobility in them is significantly limited. At least this approach puts the price tag closer to what folks might afford. Thanks for the assist, Joe.

[the beast]

I think that the instructor should have a criteria that they follow but they should keep it fresh so that students don't get bored .

[joesteph]

I think that the instructor should have a criteria that they follow but they should keep it fresh so that students don't get bored.

I realize Dave's reference is to do what's required for the students to know, and do other things that the students keep interest, but I think that the instructor can keep from becoming stale by having class contain different things now-and-then as well.

[the beast]

I realize Dave's reference is to do what's required for the students to know, and do other things that the students keep interest, but I think that the instructor can keep from becoming stale by having class contain different things now-and-then as well.

I go to a Shotokan school but we also do some grappling ,we have some students that any time they get a chance they want to grapple, now dont get me wrong I enjoy rolling as much as anyone else but if we let them dictate what we do it would no longer be Karate it would be ( Jujitsu/ MMA).This is why I say senseis shoul keep to a curriculum and maybe mix things up once in a while.

[tallgeese]

Or. what we do is add things to the core of the art as they prove valuable, immediate use skills that prove their use over time.

I'm not saying ad hoc things in, but really study other things and add them into your operational framework in a usable way. Sometimes you'll train them more frequently than others. We breakdown movements at an instructional level into three tiers: Primary, Seconday, and Terciary (can't even spell the word .

We spend a bulk of our time training primary, less on seconday but still a substantial amount over time, and very little on the third .

You'll still get those skills in time, but not as quickly as primary ones due to the frequency that you train them. They are broken down by that which we see as the most to least u seful.

This model automatically builds in a break from the "bordom factor" by adding different elements from time to time. Elements that will eventually become part of the students overall response system.