MMA a strategy?

[JusticeZero]

This may be true, but sparring isn't the -only- way to make training 'live'. You can accomplish it with two person form work, for instance, with attention paid to intensity. I often do two person drills with note to both that 'If you see the other person do the defense before you attack, do a different attack (that is chosen to absolutely foul up someone in the middle of the defense in question) instead' sometimes, as an example. Our 'sparring' is rather alien to an actual fight, and as such it changes the dynamics of the habits learned; I feel that that method has quite a bit of potential, personally, though it too has its own issues.

Sparring teaches a lot of good things, but it is also one of the best ways to learn very bad habits in the martial arts world. As such, I am not terribly impressed by the common perception of sparring as the end-all of self defense training methods. If sparring advocates were more willing to be aware of it's limitations and shortcomings, I would be less concerned on that point; as it is, I find myself needing to stand up to deliver the other side of the story.

[bushido_man96]

I think that you are spot on about the way sparring is taught in most schools, JusticeZero. Most sparring matches tend to start at a determined distance, and the mutuality of the endeavor is not always conducive to that of what an attack is like. When most attacks happen, there isn't really any "close the gap" strategy; it is usually already closed, with the bad guy already on top of you.

[tallgeese]

As I said, it's a tool.

The more it mimics a real fight the better. The more it utlizes weapons that you'll use to targets you'll use them against in a real fight, the better. I allows speed and precision work agaist a target that is moving and activly trying to hit you, this is a stress innoculation factor that will gain much ground mentally in a fight.

It's not the only tool. What you're describing sounds like what we call "spontanoeus attack/defend drills". They work at differnt levels of complexity depending on time in, but the long and short of it is that one guy makes a committed attack or series of commited attacks agaisnt a defender who has to manage it. This can get ratched up to using armor and really resisting and full on defending. It to is a valuable option.

As both of you have stated above, the attacker in a live fight might be on top of you already (another good reason to have a ground game and spend some time working it) but he might also be throwing haymakers at you, making you need to crash the gap and penetrate. Likewise, the individual might be imploying some sort of weapon, meaning that you'll either get away to esclate, or penetrate that gap to elicit control. Again, there are too many possibilities in a fight to rule out any specific skill set or drill as unneeded if it is trained against realistic movment and intent.

I agree, there are plenty of ways to do things. But sparring for alot of schools holds a solid place in sd training tools. It's a matter of training it right, training other useful drills as well, and above all maintaining mindset for what you're doing constantly.

[JusticeZero]

As noted, i've been gaining respect for the roda as a training tool; it is a 'sparring' situation with many sparring stresses, but it is designed in a way alien enough to a fight that it is clear that it should not be transferred direct over, and a situation in a fight is not likely to look like a sitation in a roda. Furthermore, some of the bad sparring habits are punished far more severely; going out of bounds is almost as serious as a TKO. As the area to spar in is generally not very large, maybe 12-15' diameter or so, sometimes less for advanced students. I've seen one played on a 4' diameter space, all floor kicks, floor maneuvering, evasions and such - no grappling or punching permitted under the rules in place in that game. This makes things like 'Don't retreat' and 'control space' into exceedingly important matters. If you have to 'close the gap' with someone twice, you probably just won because they walked off the edge.

Is it 'fighting'? No, but neither is sparring at long distances and reluctance to close, targeting hard targets at reduced power over a long duration of indecisive duelling and duel strategizing.

[tallgeese]

Everything you mention can be problematic. That's why you really have top break your sparring down as a training implement, not just "sparring" , you have to be gaining something from it's execution.

As to the space issues ect. Everything will artifical in a certain sense until you're actually in the street in a conflict. That is unavoidable. We can mimic fight conditions, but can't fully appreciate them until we're there and have to deal with that moment of "wow, this guy could REALLY hurt me- bad". So in that sense, you almost have to train around what you're enviornementally given.

Also, there's nothing saying that your fight won't happen in the wide open spaces of a parking lot, giving you the ability to hit, run, hit again if the attacker persues. This is worlds different than if you're jump at your car door and end up fighting while stuck between cars or in your front seat. Now you have to deal with a small area in wwhich to conduct business. If a training method is ever disreagarding either, then it's not complete.

Well though out sparring regimines can deal with helping studets metally prep for either of these. Also, this means taking some time to go outside and work this stuff in the enviornment that you're expecting to put it into practice in. For example, work some stuff at you're front door to prevent access. This kind of thing can build from technical movement work to limited engagment sparring (him wanting in, you trying to keep him out) to sim training. It all works together as parts of a whole in my book.

You just have to accept that occassionally you or your door frame will suffer from intese training of this type .

[bushido_man96]

Everything you mention can be problematic. That's why you really have top break your sparring down as a training implement, not just "sparring" , you have to be gaining something from it's execution.

Well though out sparring regimines can deal with helping studets metally prep for either of these. Also, this means taking some time to go outside and work this stuff in the enviornment that you're expecting to put it into practice in.

There is a good point in here that I would like to elaborate on. When you spend time in class "just sparring," I have found that those that are naturally good at it, or better at it than most, tend to spar with that competition frame of mind, to beat the other person all the time. Not that this is a bad thing, but I do think that one should take the time to work on different aspects of sparring in order to help those out that aren't as good or talented at it.

[ShoriKid]

Bushido_man,

Working on different things while sparring can be hard to do without coaching from teh sides some times. You get caught up in the moment and that competitive spirit some people have. If you vary the set up or the contact levels sometimes it's easier to work on something. We went light contact the other night working on combinations and continuously moving.

I was working on defense and head movement more. I flipout for some reason and got gun shy. Don't know why. I was frustrated, which made it worse. I think it had something to do with feeling crappy and training anyway. Felt I had no conditioning to back up my movements. Instaed of trying to win I was trying to set combinations and make openings from people's defensive actions. We coached each other from the side with reminders to move or keep the combinations. Our new home is a little smaller, so your at say, eight feet by sixteen feet in the main room. Then, we'll fight to defense a single 4x6(or whatever it is) mat. We work with partners on spontanious attacks too.

Still though, we work with basic MMA range of attacks, sometimes varying off targets. We believe in being conditioned though and having an intense level of contact and resistance. But, then we throw in kata and bunki work too. What can I say, we like the some of the MMA philosophy, but we see holes in it and try to work with them in addition to our traditional needs.

[bushido_man96]

It sounds like you get a good mix, ShoriKid.

I do like the idea of coaching from the sidelines. That way, you don't get caught up in that "have to win" mindset every time you train. I know I have that problem at times when we do spar; I just want to show that I can run with the better guys all the time.

[tallgeese]

Working with a man out to coach is a great tool. One that we try to utilize as often as we can. Additionally, it's a good idea to break down whatever happened during a match as quickly as possible to work out errors.

We'll go as far to stop a round if it's a real critical problem and work thru it. Maybe even rep a bit with some limited engagment work, then return to the free action. This way you really strive to deal with problems and correct them when the feel is still recent.

[ShoriKid]

We'll do the same stop action sort of thing in live rounds if it's a real teachable error. Especially when a guy is new or just completely locks up on the mats.