Mas Oyama & the ITF

[bushido_man96]

Un Yong Kim may not have had any MA experience, but he did surround himself with some knowledgeable MAists to put together the WTF, which brought in a lot of former ITF masters, if I recall.

As for all the "science" behind the moves in the Encyclopedia, I think there can be some argument there. TKD's parent art is Shotokan, and there were lots of similarities in the moves prior to sine wave usage. Choi did make a lot of changes in how to move in ITF forms, I think mainly to make it look different from Shotokan and to distance himself from that. I don't blame him for that, and I don't think its wrong that he did it. Nor do I think there is any more sound science behind the movements of ITF TKD and the movements of other styles, like Shotokan, WTF, Capoeira, or other styles.

[Dobbersky]

I think Mas Oyama didn't like the fighting of TKD or the "Sine Wave" and that's why he didn't join. Also Oyama Sosai was number 1 in Kyokushin, he would have to be number 2 or more if he joined with General Choi.

watching ITF sparring & Kyokushin sparring its very similar apart from the lack of thigh & knee kicks.

But as everyone knows, "Sine Wave" is a pet hate of mine, because it is only ever used in the patterns and never used in sparring or self-defence etc.

[taepan01]

I would have to disagree with you on the idea that the science behind sine wave and ITF TKD is no more than other martial arts like Kyokoshin Karate. the foundation of reactionary force and the forced looseness gained from sine wave has the potential to generate a lot more power than the stiff low stances of most styles of karate. Of course all martial arts look similar and are related to each other. There are only so many ways to punch and kick. It is the effort and understanding of the physics behind it that maximize it's effect. The sine wave provides that extra oomph.

As for the sine wave being used in only forms and not sparring that is very untrue. The sine wave is practiced in patterns so that the effort of its movement, it's fine application manifests in all forms of, well, application.

I would suggest Martina Sprauge's book on the physics of martial arts to understand the formula and Gen Choi's encyclopedia to see the application of said principals.

can anybody suggest another martial art that exposits the detailed scientific breakdowns of all of the movements and does not chalk it all up to mystic energy or chi or ki?

[Dobbersky]

I would have to disagree with you on the idea that the science behind sine wave and ITF TKD is no more than other martial arts like Kyokoshin Karate. the foundation of reactionary force and the forced looseness gained from sine wave has the potential to generate a lot more power than the stiff low stances of most styles of karate. Of course all martial arts look similar and are related to each other. There are only so many ways to punch and kick. It is the effort and understanding of the physics behind it that maximize it's effect. The sine wave provides that extra oomph.

As for the sine wave being used in only forms and not sparring that is very untrue. The sine wave is practiced in patterns so that the effort of its movement, it's fine application manifests in all forms of, well, application.

I would suggest Martina Sprauge's book on the physics of martial arts to understand the formula and Gen Choi's encyclopedia to see the application of said principals.

can anybody suggest another martial art that exposits the detailed scientific breakdowns of all of the movements and does not chalk it all up to mystic energy or chi or ki?

Welcome to the forum, and really appreciate your response. Looking forward to discussing many topics with you. My full respects as always.

We've discussed the "Sine Wave" a lot here and on other forums and you must be the only Dojang that does. i actually know many ITF instructors who don't teach it as its not original to TKD it was introduced long after ITF was established.

[kensei]

Just watched General Choi Hong Hi explain the Sine wave, I had never seen this before and never read about it...however four years of advanced physics and kinesiology..and I have no idea why this is done. He says no rotation in punching just this weird sine wave move and all i can say is NO, that makes no sense from a bio-mechanical or physics point of view. Now, I have to say that its a bad video to say the least and his English is not good..the dude doing the translating is french and wants the french crowd to understand the thing, but what I saw was poor movement, halted momentum and poor use of the body in the basics and tid bits he was doing.

The term Sine wave is also not proper for what he is describing. The up and down movements he attributes to Sine wave is only the visual representation of oscillations....what he is doing is not oscillations when moving but creating a hauling movement pattern that does not take advantage of momentum or any other basic level physics.

Sorry I fail to see how TKD is using anything but junk science in this regard....and while I am not a TKD guy, I love watching the athletic kicking of the style, so this is not a bash of the whole style in general but more a request for real explanation of the science behind using oscillation theory and how its applied here....cuz so far...not seeing it.

[Dobbersky]

The main issue is that it is exclusive to ITF TKD as WTF TKD don't use it and that's just as good.

I am of the belief General Choi wanted to differentiate HIS style from all the others and remove any existingJapanese ethics from the style, hence his meeting with Oyama Sosai etc.

The sine wave was HIS invention and he wanted HIS organisation to adopt it, some did and some became independent, not too sure but was the "Sine Wave" anything to do with the founder of Choi Kwang Do leaving to create his own style?

[kensei]

The main issue is that it is exclusive to ITF TKD as WTF TKD don't use it and that's just as good.

I am of the belief General Choi wanted to differentiate HIS style from all the others and remove any existingJapanese ethics from the style, hence his meeting with Oyama Sosai etc.

The sine wave was HIS invention and he wanted HIS organisation to adopt it, some did and some became independent, not too sure but was the "Sine Wave" anything to do with the founder of Choi Kwang Do leaving to create his own style?

That does not address a single question I might have had nor defend the fact that the Sine wave theory that he used is in any way grounded in anything other than his own made up ideas. The Sine wave theory already existed in physics and the use of it....incorrectly...does not help any. I am confused as to what he means when he tries to use this in relation to TKD as it is not used properly at all.

Please explain it more to me.

[Dobbersky]

The main issue is that it is exclusive to ITF TKD as WTF TKD don't use it and that's just as good.

I am of the belief General Choi wanted to differentiate HIS style from all the others and remove any existingJapanese ethics from the style, hence his meeting with Oyama Sosai etc.

The sine wave was HIS invention and he wanted HIS organisation to adopt it, some did and some became independent, not too sure but was the "Sine Wave" anything to do with the founder of Choi Kwang Do leaving to create his own style?

That does not address a single question I might have had nor defend the fact that the Sine wave theory that he used is in any way grounded in anything other than his own made up ideas. The Sine wave theory already existed in physics and the use of it....incorrectly...does not help any. I am confused as to what he means when he tries to use this in relation to TKD as it is not used properly at all.

Please explain it more to me.

Swordgod, There's a thread already listed on the "Sine Wave" I don't wish to hijack the thread too much.

[DWx]

Here's the thread where we discussed it before:

http://www.karateforums.com/sine-wave-itf-tkd-vt42144.html

I wrote a reply on there which hopefully goes some way to explaining how to do proper sine wave.

However since I do ITF TKD and do sine wave, perhaps I can attempt a little explanation here.

Instead of down/up/down, I prefer to think of it as relaxation/expansion/contraction. At the heart of it the idea is that relaxation makes for more natural technique and will also result in better weight management and drive behind your technique.

The best way I ever had it explained to me was as if you were sighing with your whole body (down motion), drawing back your hip (upwards), then firing the technique by driving with the back leg (down again). Contrary to what Gen. I Choi said in that video, hip twist should also be used but it is used in conjunction with the stance movement.

Also wrt to what was said above, I think it does manifest itself in sparring as it's all about relaxing and driving with the back leg and ITFers will spar this way. Obviously it's a more compact motion but so is pulling your non-punching hand back to the hip and doing "proper" blocks.

[DWx]

I think Mas Oyama didn't like the fighting of TKD or the "Sine Wave" and that's why he didn't join. Also Oyama Sosai was number 1 in Kyokushin, he would have to be number 2 or more if he joined with General Choi.

watching ITF sparring & Kyokushin sparring its very similar apart from the lack of thigh & knee kicks.

But as everyone knows, "Sine Wave" is a pet hate of mine, because it is only ever used in the patterns and never used in sparring or self-defence etc.

I'm not too hot on my dates but had sine wave been introduced at this point?