Mas Oyama & the ITF

[Kuma]

No doubt, I think so too. Really, any art can be learned/taught in such a way to fight underneath a variety of different rulesets. I didn't mean to come off as ticked off or obnoxious, apologize if I did. I just wanted to show how the different rulesets made the arts evolve into what they are.

[bushido_man96]

No worries, Kuma.

I guess when I spar at my gym, I see more parallels because we don't have as many of the fancier kicks flying around, and the sparring is a bit more straightforward than most Olympic sparring. About as fancy as we get is a spin heel kick or spin side kick.

[isshinryu5toforever]

I think the biggest difference between the two is the focus, the end goal. In taekwondo of today, the goal is to score more points than your opponent. In the taekwondo of yesteryear, like the 1960s, the goal was to end the fight, much like Kyokushin. Kyokushin still holds the tradition of trying to end the fight as quickly as possible, taekwondo lost this somewhere along the way. The sparring rules do differ, but they also show some similarity (a focus on kicks, no punches to the face, etc.). I think the largest blame for taekwondo becoming a sport of points rather than knockouts stems from the desire of the kukkiwon to appeal to everyone. They wanted the sport to be an Olympic one, and they wanted to make it seem like anyone in the world could do it. That's not the goal of Kyokushin.

[bushido_man96]

Well put. I think that sums things up very well.

[isshinryu5toforever]

Thank you. After having done knockdown for a long time, I did WTF rules sparring while I was in university. The differences led to a lot of real discussion on the philosophy of fighting with my coach. Not discussions as in, I hurt a teammate, but actual friendly discourse between two trained people. It was fun.

[bushido_man96]

Out of curiousity, did your knockdown training prove to be a boon to your WTF competitive career?

[isshinryu5toforever]

I actually think it was an asset. I was a much better fighter inside than any of the other guys. I was also very good at crashing, and much more resilient. I was also a very good puncher, which allowed me to throw off the timing of the other person. At black belt level, it's a lot of wait and react, or twitch and see the reaction and move. When you punch someone really hard in the middle of the hogu, and they stumble back and get a bit confused, it throws their game off a lot.

I ended my collegiate career with only three or four losses total, one due to a severely sprained knee that I fought on anyways. I lost by one point. The other, I don't remember. I won something like 30 matches, 5 or 6 by knockout.

The aggressiveness inherent in the style of fighting I came from helped tons. I was never afraid to be inside someone else's kicking distance, and I didn't worry about points until the very end of the match. I was going in there to knock them around a lot harder than they knocked me around. I never lost a fight, just lost the points match up a couple times.

[bushido_man96]

Very nice. I tend to have a problem with the points end of it, too. I would rather go for the harder contact, and eat a few shots to make some good shots. I also have a problem with the endurance part of it all (as in, not having any ). But, oh well.

At black belt level, it's a lot of wait and react, or twitch and see the reaction and move.

I never did care for this aspect of it. Perhaps its because I have never been very fast. I like to get inside and punch, as well, but I often find myself a bit tied up, with only one hand to punch with. I seem to get into that hook/uppercut punching range, and not a straight punching range. I'm still working on that.

[isshinryu5toforever]

Yeah, it does become a big speed game at the higher levels, but you can negate someone's speed by using angles and movement. Cut kicks work too. Flexibility can be your biggest asset. It doesn't matter how fast you kick, most of the time, people won't see a kick to the head coming from well inside their punching range. If you watch clips of Kyokushin, or any knockdown karate really, most knockouts using a high level round kick happen inside punching range, directly after a punch, or using a heavy fake.

[Truestar]

I think the biggest difference between the two is the focus, the end goal. In taekwondo of today, the goal is to score more points than your opponent. In the taekwondo of yesteryear, like the 1960s, the goal was to end the fight, much like Kyokushin. Kyokushin still holds the tradition of trying to end the fight as quickly as possible, taekwondo lost this somewhere along the way. The sparring rules do differ, but they also show some similarity (a focus on kicks, no punches to the face, etc.). I think the largest blame for taekwondo becoming a sport of points rather than knockouts stems from the desire of the kukkiwon to appeal to everyone. They wanted the sport to be an Olympic one, and they wanted to make it seem like anyone in the world could do it. That's not the goal of Kyokushin.

I would love to start a Tae Kwon Do school and have it not affiliated with anyone and train my students and I to be Tae Kwon Do fighters, not TKD competitors. I think it could be a wake up call as to what it traditionally was.