Mas Oyama & the ITF

[bushido_man96]

That's what I would guess. General Choi was making a major push to consolidate the Korean Kwans under his umbrella style that became the ITF. I recently read some history provided by rmclain on his GM concerning this movement, and some in Black Belt Magazine as well. What was different with Oyama is I think that he stayed in Japan, didn't he?

[tonydee]

from Taekwondo Times, Jan 2000:

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TKDTimes: You and Mas Oyama once worked together trying to develop Taekwon-Do, but this partnership was not successful.

Choi Hong Hi: In 1966, returning from a visit to the United States, I stopped in Tokyo. A friend of mine told me that Mas Oyama was in the process of becoming a Japanese citizen. As you know, Mas Oyama was born in Korea. He left his home at an early age and spent most of his life in Japan as a Korean National.

I decide to see him to try to stop him from becoming a Japanese citizen. First, I praised his achievements in Karate and then told of the life of his brother in Korea. I told him that Korea needed men like him and that he should come back to Korea. We should work together to promote Taekwon-Do. And that if he did so, his name would be known Korean history. Master Oyama told me he understood what I had told him and then he went home, promising to see me tomorrow.

The next morning, I heard from Mr Lee, Sung Woo, a good friend of Master Oyama. Master Oyama had visited Mr Lee after we had talked the previous evening. And he told Mr Lee, "I was born in Korea, but came to Japan at an early age. And with the help of Prime Minister Sato, I achieve the success I have today. The Prime Minister has encouraged me to become a Japanese citizen."

After speaking with Mr Lee, I thought that Master Oyama was wavering about his decision to become a Japanese citizen. So, I invited Master Oyama to Korea. We visited Seoul and the DMZ. I arranged for a Taekwon-Do demonstration for him. Later we went to his hometown where he was reunited with his brothers and relatives. I also arranged for him to be interviewed on KBS TV.

Before returning to Japan, he told me at the Kimpo Airport, "As a simpleminded man, I don't think that I can survive in this kind of environment." And then he left Korea.

Even though we went our separate ways, we vowed to become blood brothers. I am the elder brother and Mas Oyama is my younger brother.

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To my mind, much of this - and that last and completely unnecessary comment in particular - speaks volumes about the humility, dignity and sense of Master Oyama, and the ego and political point scoring of Choi Hong Hi.

Cheers, Tony

[bushido_man96]

Tony, have you read Alex Gillis' book A Killing Art? It is a very informative read on the politics that made TKD what it is today.

[tonydee]

I haven't read it actually... I guess I should get it, as I'd probably enjoy it in a poisonous kind of way . Will dig around amazon later, thanks

Cheers, Tony

[bushido_man96]

I recommend that you do. One of the better books I've read on TKD history.

[Kuma]

As has been mentioned previosly, It's my understanding that Gen Choi did try to recruit Oyama Sensei into joining the TKD movemement. However for what ever reason Oyama declined.

Mas Oyama was looking to popularize his own karate style, Kyokushin, so I'm pretty sure he refused as he didn't want any part of it. Mas Oyama wanted Kyokushin not to become like a lot of the other mainstream arts of the day and by going to TKD he would have to adopt their sparring style, which goes completely against his idea of jissen kumite and his reasoning for creating Kyokushin in the first place.

[Kuma]

As for the TKD Times article, by 1966 Mas Oyama had already been promoting his Kyokushin style for 13 years. He was in the Japanese Army at age 15 (1937) so by that time he had already been living in Japan for close to 30 years. He had already done fights and seminars all over the world and had become very popular. It's easy to see why he would say no. All that hard work to get to where he was, only to give up yourself to another?

[bushido_man96]

As has been mentioned previosly, It's my understanding that Gen Choi did try to recruit Oyama Sensei into joining the TKD movemement. However for what ever reason Oyama declined.

Mas Oyama was looking to popularize his own karate style, Kyokushin, so I'm pretty sure he refused as he didn't want any part of it. Mas Oyama wanted Kyokushin not to become like a lot of the other mainstream arts of the day and by going to TKD he would have to adopt their sparring style, which goes completely against his idea of jissen kumite and his reasoning for creating Kyokushin in the first place.

When I look at TKD sparring (especially Olympic) and Kyokushin, I see several similarities, but most of them are as far as the rules go.

Neither does head punching. Both can compete to knockout. I think the major difference is that Kyokushin allows lower kicks. If I am wrong, let me know. Granted, Choi wasn't promoting at that time what we now see as Olympic style, but I think that the two show some similarities in their sparring rules. The differences pop up in the stylistic points; TKDers obviously kick a lot more, and emphasize speed and set-up kicking to get the knockout, which usually ends up being some high, spinning or jump/spinning kick. Kyokushin perfers the knockdown or knockout, and will score punches, where Olympic TKD tends not to. Overall, though, I'd call Kyokushin the harder style.

Just some thoughts to ponder....

[Kuma]

When I look at TKD sparring (especially Olympic) and Kyokushin, I see several similarities, but most of them are as far as the rules go.

Neither does head punching. Both can compete to knockout. I think the major difference is that Kyokushin allows lower kicks. If I am wrong, let me know. Granted, Choi wasn't promoting at that time what we now see as Olympic style, but I think that the two show some similarities in their sparring rules. The differences pop up in the stylistic points; TKDers obviously kick a lot more, and emphasize speed and set-up kicking to get the knockout, which usually ends up being some high, spinning or jump/spinning kick. Kyokushin perfers the knockdown or knockout, and will score punches, where Olympic TKD tends not to. Overall, though, I'd call Kyokushin the harder style.

Just some thoughts to ponder....

There are actually a lot of differences, especially in regards to how they evolved to what they are today.

From my understanding, the Olympic style of TKD sparring began around the 1960s when they started fighting with chest protectors on and scoring matches similar to a boxing match. Apparently though this wasn't too popular as Choi Hong Hi didn't like this as much like Funakoshi he didn't want people sparring. Now they have the current WTF rules with the headgear, chest protector, and shin pads and whatever else they use.

From this link (ftp://users.primushost.com/members/j/m/jmont/tkd/2005_wtf_rules_int.pdf), it says you can use fist techniques against the body but only to the chest protector, which in this ruleset makes it useless with the chest protector on as what's it really going to do to your opponent? Also, they give 1 point for striking the trunk and 2 for the face, so if you want the most points you're constantly going to be kicking anyways. You're also penalized for leg strikes and cannot use knee strikes. Not sure what their best scoring techniques are, but comparing theirs and Kyokushin you can see there's a difference. Since you also get points per technique, this is where you see the running kicks and the multiple kicks with one leg come into play.

Kyokushin kumite came about a bit differently. Oyama was the opposite of that mindset: he wanted it to be as realistic as possible (hence, "jissen kumite") and did not want any kind of protection to be used whatsoever. They fought that way for some time, including bare knuckle strikes to the face, until there was a stir for the way he was fighting due to illegal prizefighting rules in several countries (where bare-knuckle fighting fell under that definition). Also dental bills can get kind of high too, I imagine. Oyama had the choice of adding protection to fight that way, but Oyama decided to simply eliminate hand and arm strikes to the head so they could continue fighting full contact without protection.

Kyokushin sparring is decided on an "ippon" basis, or full point. You score an ippon if you score a technique that drops your opponent for more than 3 sec or your opponent gives up. You can also score "waza-ari", half point, by knocking your opponent down or sweeping them followed up with a non contact strike. If it goes to "yusei", the fighter with superior skill and spirit will get the decision. Most wins are decided by kicks or knees to the head, body punches that knock the wind out of your opponent or break their ribs, or kicks to the legs that make your opponent unable to continue. Since there's no points awarded other than those that knock your opponent down or make them unable to continue, exchanges can be vicious. You can also see a type of Kyokushin fighter who would never do well in WTF rules: one who stays in close, punching and kneeing with the occasional low kick but never kicking above the waist. All techniques are allowed except the following:

# Hand or arm strikes to the face, head, or neck

# Kicks to the groin.

# Head thrust or butts.

# Kicks to any part of the knee

# Grabbing or holding an opponent or his/hers DOGI. (Though some tournaments, i.e. the Sabaki Challenge, now allow this.)

# Elbow strikes to any part of the opponents back.

# Striking or kicking an opponent who has been downed, unless the attack immediately follows the sweep or downing techniques in which case contact is not allowed.

# Making an attack from the floor after having been downed by the opponent. (This should not be confused with an opponent defending himself whilst on the floor).

# Failing to obey the referee's instructions during the bout.

# Any other techniques or practice that the referee of the contest shall decide is improper or unfair.

So it's interesting to see where two arts began at about the same area, but they've evolved very differently. You can see the differences in the two videos below. Interestingly, I saw no punches in the TKD sparring.

TKD Sparring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhJ5HGPS158

Kyokushin Sparring:

As a final video (this is not to stir up style vs style drama), this is what appears to be a Kyokushin fighter against a WTF fighter. I think the main reason why the WTF fighter lost is due to the lack of punching they typically do, he didn't have anything useful once they were up close which is exactly where jissen kumite tends to be.

[bushido_man96]

Kuma:

I was simply stating that there are some similarities in the two styles, not that they were the same. This was not my intent, and I am sorry if I made it sound that way. I have seen clips of each, and I know that the sparring styles are vastly different from each other.

I do think, however, that a TKD sparrer could alter his game a bit to spar with a Kyokushin fighter using that ruleset, because many of the rules are similar. You are right about one thing, though, and that is the lack of interest in punching in WTF TKD. This bothers me, too.

You are also right in stating that the protective gear of TKD does change the dynamics of the sparring. No questions there. I just felt that the two do share some things, even if the sparring is different.