Mas Oyama & the ITF

[Dobbersky]

I think Mas Oyama didn't like the fighting of TKD or the "Sine Wave" and that's why he didn't join. Also Oyama Sosai was number 1 in Kyokushin, he would have to be number 2 or more if he joined with General Choi.

watching ITF sparring & Kyokushin sparring its very similar apart from the lack of thigh & knee kicks.

But as everyone knows, "Sine Wave" is a pet hate of mine, because it is only ever used in the patterns and never used in sparring or self-defence etc.

I'm not too hot on my dates but had sine wave been introduced at this point?

That's a good question, I'm sure someone could come back with the answer

[bushido_man96]

I think Mas Oyama didn't like the fighting of TKD or the "Sine Wave" and that's why he didn't join. Also Oyama Sosai was number 1 in Kyokushin, he would have to be number 2 or more if he joined with General Choi.

watching ITF sparring & Kyokushin sparring its very similar apart from the lack of thigh & knee kicks.

But as everyone knows, "Sine Wave" is a pet hate of mine, because it is only ever used in the patterns and never used in sparring or self-defence etc.

I'm not too hot on my dates but had sine wave been introduced at this point?

That's a good question, I'm sure someone could come back with the answer

Gillis states in A Killing Art that Choi and Oyama met around 1967-68, and that the sine wave was developed sometime in the early 1980s.

I would have to disagree with you on the idea that the science behind sine wave and ITF TKD is no more than other martial arts like Kyokoshin Karate. the foundation of reactionary force and the forced looseness gained from sine wave has the potential to generate a lot more power than the stiff low stances of most styles of karate. Of course all martial arts look similar and are related to each other. There are only so many ways to punch and kick. It is the effort and understanding of the physics behind it that maximize it's effect. The sine wave provides that extra oomph.

I've read the entire 15 volume collection of Encyclopedia of Taekwon-do, and he gives the same equations on force that I've seen elsewhere in MA writings on the subject of force. He also talks of reactionary force. The sine wave mentioned isn't the same sine wave I see in YouTube videos. Nor do I see the TKD way of doing things as more relaxed than the way Shotokan or Kyokushin stylists do their basic and forms work, either.

[DWx]

I would have to disagree with you on the idea that the science behind sine wave and ITF TKD is no more than other martial arts like Kyokoshin Karate. the foundation of reactionary force and the forced looseness gained from sine wave has the potential to generate a lot more power than the stiff low stances of most styles of karate. Of course all martial arts look similar and are related to each other. There are only so many ways to punch and kick. It is the effort and understanding of the physics behind it that maximize it's effect. The sine wave provides that extra oomph.

I've read the entire 15 volume collection of Encyclopedia of Taekwon-do, and he gives the same equations on force that I've seen elsewhere in MA writings on the subject of force. He also talks of reactionary force. The sine wave mentioned isn't the same sine wave I see in YouTube videos. Nor do I see the TKD way of doing things as more relaxed than the way Shotokan or Kyokushin stylists do their basic and forms work, either.

I think part of the issue is that the General wanted so much for his TKD to be different (and better) from Japanese Karate and Kukkiwon TKD so I think he just took all the scientific jargon and equations relating to force without really having a total understanding of them or how to properly relate them to his martial art. I didn't start training until the 00's but even since then these things like sine wave etc. have been refined and retuned into something more useful whereas I think when they were implemented they were largely ineffective and there for the sake of being different. I suppose that's one of the things I've always liked about the style and of belonging to the ITF, things get refined all the time and improved (for the better?).

The other issue when talking about all this stuff is the language barrier. I don't think the General's English was fantastic and he was giving all these scientific names to things without maybe totally understanding how they would interpreted by English speakers. As far as I'm concerned the idea of "reaction force" as it's presented in the books and taught by a lot of ITF instructors is a bit mixed up because he took actual reaction force (as in Newton's 3rd law) and then went and called the non-punching arm the reaction arm too.

I only have the condensed Encyclopedia to hand but it says:

Reaction Force (Bandong Ryok)

According to Newton's Law, every force has an equal and opposite force... if your opponent is rushing towards you at a high speed, by the slightest blow at his head, the force with which you strike his head would be that of his own onslaught plus that of your blow...

Another reaction force is your own. A punch with the right fist is aided by pulling back the left fist to the hip.

The first bit is fine but by including the bit in bold in the same section and calling it a reaction force too, you generate confusion. There's nothing wrong with that statement on it's own but the reaction hand isn't adding additional force or power.

Also, YouTube isn't always a good reference as a lot of the videos on there are competition videos where bigger sine wave is encouraged for artistic and aesthetic reasons.