bunkai of the Pinan Katas

[tallgeese]

It comes down to the value that one places on kata. To alot of ma-ist it's become archaic in light of modern teaching methods. To others, it's an interesting side note, something they want to have in their practice repitore but at the end of the day are concerned with very little. To each their own.

I personally would never place value in a school due to kata or lack thereof, regardless of what purpose it was purported to serve.

[Wa-No-Michi]

It comes down to the value that one places on kata. To alot of ma-ist it's become archaic in light of modern teaching methods. To others, it's an interesting side note, something they want to have in their practice repitore but at the end of the day are concerned with very little. To each their own.

I personally would never place value in a school due to kata or lack thereof, regardless of what purpose it was purported to serve.

Well I would certainly agree, that kata that is not taught well and by a person that doesn't really know how to teach them (and the purpose), is a waste of time.

I think however they do have a tremendous value - maybe this value is difficult to see in modern MA terms though, but as part of a complete system, yes they do have value imo.

I think you also have to bear in mind that Kihon or Basic line work style training is relatively modern in Karate terms, and prior to its inception all basic techniques were transmitted via Kata.

So therefore, is there an argument that if you have basic line drills to hone technique and pair work to learn how to apply them, is Kata redundant?

To my way of thinking it most certainly isn't, as its the bridge between the two.

Its how your system uses this bridge that is the key and how it is applied to your karate training.

A bit of traditional Karate bumf for you Tallgeese....

The word "Bunkai" is a little misunderstood or misused sometimes today as strictly speaking it doesn't mean application.

Bunkai is the process of analysis, or dissection. The objective is to "realise" more practical, flexible and instinctive (free) movements from within the kata.

Traditionally in order to do this, there are stages that are usually followed these include:

Kaisetsu = Application of moves as they appear in their classical form.

Kaishaku = Interpretation of the moves found within the classical form.

Different schools use different processes to achieve the same end result. In my Wado group for example, I would say that most of the "Kaishaku" or interpretation bit, is done through Kumite (fighting) - initially through various stages of Yakusoku (pre arranged) kumite and also Jiyu (free) fighting.

I bet you are none the wiser after that then Tallgeese!!

[swadoryu2000]

I have found an interesting section on the subject, in terms of kata. It is written by Kenwa Mabuni, but translated by Mark Tankosich. I liked this short discussion, as some of the things they talk about can be useful.

http://seinenkai.com/articles/tankosich/tankosich3.html

[Wa-No-Michi]

I have found an interesting section on the subject, in terms of kata. It is written by Kenwa Mabuni, but translated by Mark Tankosich. I liked this short discussion, as some of the things they talk about can be useful.

http://seinenkai.com/articles/tankosich/tankosich3.html

Good find swadoryu2000,

This sort of falls in line with my way of thinking -

Taken from the article -

"The reason why is that the ways of thrusting and blocking - that is to say, the techniques of attack and defense - have innumerable variations. To create kumite containing all of the techniques in each and every one of their variations is impossible."

Your pre arranged kumite should reflect basic application of techniques found within Kata, and therefore give you a good understanding of what you are doing and why.

Because of this, trying to create / re-enact endless interpretations of techniques is counter productive as they are immeasurable in number. You are in effect wasting your time when it could better spent actually practicing the kata.

Also there is a risk of letting your imagination run wild, and your interpretations taking you away from the the intended movement / form held within the Kata its self (IE Embusen etc).

So in effect, your pre arranged kumite is the study of application of technique, whilst kata is the study (and honing) of technique and the principles of movement contained therein.

With the correct balance understanding of both, the Karate-ka should be able to re-act "instinctively" to any of the "innumerable" attacks he/she may encounter.

... and this is where your Jiyu Kumite (free fighting) comes into play.

[joesteph]

It comes down to the value that one places on kata. To alot of ma-ist it's become archaic in light of modern teaching methods. To others, it's an interesting side note, something they want to have in their practice repitore but at the end of the day are concerned with very little. To each their own.

I know that for me, as a lower (orange) belt, it's helpful regarding combinations and balance, and my teacher can watch to determine that I'm performing a technique properly as I go from one to the other, or even the same (e.g., a series of punches) done correctly all the way through.

Whenever something from a hyung I perform is taken out and shown with martial application, the hyung becomes a sort of "library," with each technique as an individual library book. When we form a line, and a combination of moves (and there are many combinations can can be thought of) is called out, invariably at least half the time something from a hyung is part of the combination called. The toughest part of understanding my training is not in the hyung, but in the combinations called out, and the hyung has "saved" me on occasion from standing there, not knowing what to do, or doing it in a shoddy manner.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Ok, theorising about the wrongs, rights, advantages and disadvantages of bunkai aside, we should get back on topic.

I think we were talking about pinan Yondan....

So, after you have performed the tenohira-uke - tate uraken combo, you have the two sets of Jodan soto uke - maegeri - double chudan tsuki combos.

After these, comes a really juicy bit. ie the 3 x sotouke / otoshiuke in nekoashi, followed by the double sotouke jodan - hiza geri renraku.

Any thoughts on these?

[swadoryu2000]

I think the last moves (after the 3 soto uke's) could be striking with the last uke, bringing his head in for an elbow smash, then kneeing him in the head.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I think the last moves (after the 3 soto uke's) could be striking with the last uke, bringing his head in for an elbow smash, then kneeing him in the head.

Yes classic, whilst grabbing and pulling opponents arms down and to the side? A good way to off balance your opponent (kuzushi).

Also could be a release from katetori (lapel grab) at this stage followed by hizageri or maegeri.

Next is 225 deg turn - with otoshi / kake uke combo in nekoashi. I see lots of potential in this set along with the transition from the previous combo.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Anyone, anyone, Bueller?

Come on guys, this is a Karate Forum, it says so at the top of the page.

This is basic stuff. Isn't it?

[bushido_man96]

Well, anytime there is a turn involved, it seems to me like a good opportunity to put in a trip/throw/takedown of some kind. Thoughts?