bunkai of the Pinan Katas

[Wa-No-Michi]

Then what's the point of gaining your own interpretations if he can't incorporate valid combative movements into his training?

Personally, this is why I shy away from kata. It's too "what does this mean" kind of training. Find movements that work, set up drills to practice them against increasingly live opponents, use them. It's easier that way, and save a ton of time in prepping movements for use to my mind.

Sorry, this last string took us a little off topic. Just my opinion.

Actually I am with you tallgeese.

As a Wado guy the importance of Kata isnt bunkai, it lies elsewhere.

We validate our combative movements through the process of partner work, as in fact do many of the traditional okinawan karates as well.

Unfortunately the word "bunkai" has been Jumped upon by many western authors as a way to peddle their wares, but in reality it means something completely different.

Ultimately this leaves a lot of people "confused" as to what the process of bunkai actually is, how to approach it, and where it fits into their training regime. So not as to miss the boat that everyone else is on, they jump on it!

But to my mind if it gets the gray cells working there isn't any harm...

[edit] As long as it is part of a well balanced diet.

[DWx]

Then what's the point of gaining your own interpretations if he can't incorporate valid combative movements into his training?

Personally, this is why I shy away from kata. It's too "what does this mean" kind of training. Find movements that work, set up drills to practice them against increasingly live opponents, use them. It's easier that way, and save a ton of time in prepping movements for use to my mind.

This very thing totally confused me when I started looking at things outside of my ITF TKD (this forum included). I was like "how can you not know what the techniques are?" "why are you even doing it if you don't know what they're for or how they're applied?". Obviously now I know better but I couldn't understand why you kata guys were trying to work the bunkai of your forms. The forms I do are relatively modern and each move has a purpose as laid out by their creator so it just seemed totally wierd that you were figuring out the bunkai.

[tallgeese]

Ok, now I do have to ask, michi.

What is the focus of kata in Wado then? Seriously, again, I'm not a kata guy so fill me in. Most of the time I hear kata touted as a tool for sd instruction. What role does it fill in Wado?

[Wa-No-Michi]

Ok, now I do have to ask, michi.

What is the focus of kata in Wado then? Seriously, again, I'm not a kata guy so fill me in. Most of the time I hear kata touted as a tool for sd instruction. What role does it fill in Wado?

In a nutshell... movement.

Of course you have to "realise" these movements (and techniques contained within) by applying them against an opponent. But in Wado we tend to refer to this as Kaisetsu (or physical explanation) of each technique.

This differs from Bunkai imo, as it is literally performed as it appears in the Kata - without adaptation. A bit like DWX was explaining re her TKD Hyungs (sp?).

At risk of putting this a bit simplistically, perhaps Wado katas were a way to ingrain correct movement into the muscle memory in much the same way as boxers may shadow box?

[tallgeese]

Interesting....I could see this more than many of the other theories that I've heard regarding kata.

[Wa-No-Michi]

And before the inevitable onslaught of "Bunkai is the heart of Kata" thing happens, please bear in mind that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Just because you don't practice the process of bunkai, doesn't mean that the meaning of the techniques found within are lost to you.

Other processes exist, they are plentiful, you just have to find what suits you. imo

[bushido_man96]

Bushido_man - To my mind you are better off training with the sort of things you are learning in your Aikido class specifically, rather than trying to figure out where the techniques you have learned can be addopted into your kata training.

I think that seeing these things in other venues helps to open up my forms training a bit. I do think that there are applications to the moves in the forms, and since my school doesn't do much forms applications, I can find them through other sources, such as cross-referencing my Aikido/Hapkido classes, and in other sources, like in books from guys like Abernethy and Anslow.

[Wa-No-Michi]

... and since my school doesn't do much forms applications, I can find them through other sources, ...

Why do you think you school doesn't do too much form application?

[bushido_man96]

... and since my school doesn't do much forms applications, I can find them through other sources, ...

Why do you think you school doesn't do too much form application?

Because no one was shown application. Simple as that. The forms are used to for technique development, which would go along with movement, and we do one-steps that are referred to as our "self-defense techniques" , and then free sparring and board breaking go into our testing requirements.

The GM of our association also has some Ho Sin Sul put together, but our school never practices it, except once in a blue moon. So, I look for other ways to find applications.

[Wa-No-Michi]

... and since my school doesn't do much forms applications, I can find them through other sources, ...

Why do you think you school doesn't do too much form application?

Because no one was shown application. Simple as that. The forms are used to for technique development, which would go along with movement, and we do one-steps that are referred to as our "self-defense techniques" , and then free sparring and board breaking go into our testing requirements.

The GM of our association also has some Ho Sin Sul put together, but our school never practices it, except once in a blue moon. So, I look for other ways to find applications.

Interesting... So do you feel therefore that your school is not as comprehensive as you would like in this respect.

It is a shame the GM is reluctant to transmit the Ho Sin Sul he has formulated - Maybe you should approach him and find out why.

I can understand now however why you would look for to other sources if they not being offered to you by your school, however I would also have to ask whether you feel you are getting value for money by sticking with your current school?

Each to their own of course.