School/Teaching Method Dilemma

[bwesleyp]

I am sure this topic has been covered several times before, but I have a school/teaching method dilemma. I have been attending a tae kwon do school for over a year and just reached blue belt level. I have the utmost respect for my instructors and the school. They run a great program and for the most part I enjoy the curriculum (we get to spar almost every class). It is a big school affiliated with a national organization. The majority of the students are kids/teens with a few adults. I am 36 y/o and I enjoy class with the other adult students.

However, I am starting to have some questions/second guessing as to how qualified I am to be at the level I have achieved and how qualified those above me really are. I have no doubt about the skills of the instructors. They seem more than well qualified. However, I am starting to wonder if we are all being promoted just to be promoted? Are the senior belts in my school really at the level their belt designates?

We test every two months and have a jr./sr. rank for each colored belt. Testing covers forms/sparring/self defense/board breaking. If you successfully pass each one of these skills you move forward. The only qualification to test is to perform the skill in front of the instructor prior to testing to earn a stripe and pay the testing fee. Following this schedule one could reach black belt in about 2 1/2 years. However, I look at the skills, flexibility, technique, drive, proficiency, and focus of some of the black belts and wonder how they would be compared to black belts from a more traditional style of teaching. How would they compare to other black belts around the nation?

I don't claim to be any better than those above me, but I want to be the best I can be and want to truly earn my rank. This has led me to inquire in another school that has a more traditonal teaching method. My dilemma is that I don't want to turn my back on my original school after one year. I don't want to let them down. I was going to try attending both schools for a month to see which one I liked best...but I feel like I am cheating on someone.

It sounds like the new school will make me start all over from white belt. The instructor at the traditonal school will not let observe a class. He insists that I sign up for one month and attend so he can evaulate me as a student and him as an instructor to see if it will work. He is a Korean Master and seems very knowledgeable. I don't know much about the traditional teaching methods and he would not offer much in a way of explanation. He rambled on about balance in all aspects of life, and "qualifying" me as a student. I was intrigued, but at the same time sense a little bit of B.S.

I want to truly learn and be proficient not just advance for the sake of getting a new belt, but do not want to start all over. What to do? Is the school/training what I make of it? Should I be looking to my school instructors to make sure I am ready to advance?

[Tiger1962]

I don't think you're alone in wondering this. I have often wondered the same thing and there's probably others out there who also do. As much as I enjoy the style I train in, sometimes when I see certain things go on in my school or at tournaments, I wonder just how qualified others are. I also wonder about the worth of my own rank sometimes! Meaning, I believe we all have periods where we get discouraged and have moments of doubt from time to time. Could that be it for you?

The other thing is I feel that it's only natural to question things like that. If you truly feel that the promotion level is too quick, then maybe it's not such a bad idea to explore other styles. I don't see it as "cheating" - - after all you are paying a tuition, not learning it for free; and if you feel that you aren't getting your money's worth or that it doesn't seem valid enough, then there is nothing wrong with exploring other options, and you don't HAVE to mention it to your instructor. Now there are some who might not agree with me and that's ok. Everyone sees things from a different point of view. But I WILL say that there are other styles outside of yours who's promotion and ranking have a longer waiting period between testing for rank and also have more curriculum to be tested on between belt levels.

What you mentioned about the Korean master didn't sit right with me either. Like you, I sensed some b.s. too. You are a prospective student, what's there to qualify? It's not like you're taking a test to become a police officer or some other law enforcement person where you need to qualify PHYSICALLY & PSYCHOLOGICALLY. You're a prospective customer. You want to learn martial arts. You pay a tuition, you join a school. That's how I see it. Maybe this guy thinks you're a "spy" from another school. I have heard of students who take a few classes at a competitors school to see what it's like (curriculum, agenda, rates, etc.) and then report back to their instructor at their dojo. It's martial arts competition - maybe that's what he's thinking?? Also, it seems odd that he will not let you observe a class. I've visited a few other m.a. schools outside the style I train in and all have offered to let me observe their class or at least take one introductory class - so again, to me that sounds strange.

If this were me, I'd find another style that interests me, and confidentially take a few classes to test it out. If this other guy doesn't let you then find somewhere else. Compare it to where you train now. Then decide. That's my opinion and it's what I would do, if I felt as you.

Good luck

[joesteph]

. . . I am starting to have some questions/second guessing as to how qualified I am to be at the level I have achieved and how qualified those above me really are. I have no doubt about the skills of the instructors. They seem more than well qualified. . . .

I had this very feeling within the past few weeks, Bwesleyp, and first spoke with a fellow orange belt (we're new to Soo Bahk Do) as we were about to test for a stripe to be added--a "leg up" without a belt color change. I told him I felt that I need to be more proficient, and it's because of the time factor (single parent, schoolwork brought home as a teacher, etc.) to get in proper practice, as well as my personal abilities in this art. I told him that the highest belt I'm aiming for is green belt.

I decided to speak privately with my instructor, but she felt I was doing fine; I'd had a promotion from white belt to orange belt after four months (passing a test), and I'm to receive the stripe on my orange belt from having just passed the testing series I've taken four months later. She felt that I'm improving, and it'll be another four months before testing for green belt. I gathered that with the lower belts, there can be more leeway in promotion, in that you're so far from dan level that it's like worrying why you can't do college work--and you're in grade school.

The agreement, which I consider an honest one, is that if I don't feel ready to accept a higher belt color, or if she feels I need more time to develop my skills, the next test can be put off without any feeling of offense that others are moving up.

However, I am starting to wonder if we are all being promoted just to be promoted? Are the senior belts in my school really at the level their belt designates?

I don't know your belt level, Bwesleyp. What might be considered to be mastered more strictly at a higher level might be par for the course for a lower belt.

This has led me to inquire in another school that has a more traditional teaching method. . . .

The instructor at the traditonal school will not let observe a class.

Just because a school is more traditional, that makes it neither better nor worse; it means only that it has a way of doing things that may or may not be profitable for the individual student. My personal belief, based on experience from past (years ago) and present, is that traditional can also be restrictive.

Not let you observe a class? What's the national security secret? You will not steal treasured knowledge from observing one class, and it sounds like you informed the instructor at the second school what your concerns were about your present school. I used to do sales. He's doing a good job, playing the right "head game" to break you from your present school and become one of his students, one of his tuition-paying students. Remember that a school of martial arts is a business. Do not have anything more to do with him; he will speak with sincerity, even firmness of purpose, and retain eye contact at all times while he's doing business.

Should I be looking to my school instructors to make sure I am ready to advance?

Yes! Speak one-on-one with an instructor from your school who you feel will listen attentively and respond with knowledgeable answers. You will not be speaking with a stranger, and you will have given at least one of those who are your present instructors the opportunity to speak from his/her perspective.

Good luck.

[tallgeese]

There's certainly nothing wrong with checking out other schools and seeing what they are doing. On the other hand, you could always try to make some ties with other guys training in other arts and train informally. This will also give you a feel for how you're doing.

As for this place you went to check out...I'd be leery of anywhere that wouldn't let me even watch a class first. And wanted me to sign a contract, that's a fit fishy to me.

You do have to ask if you're happy doing what you are at your school. If you are getting the skill set you want, then the rest shouldn't matter. Realistically evaluating your training goals is a good place to start for deciding this kind of thing. Next, see if it's being met.

[bwesleyp]

Thanks for the insight. After reading our post and giving it some thought I am going to speak with my instructors and do some serious contemplation before each future test.

Like you, joesteph, I have limited time to train due to work and family obligations. I usually only get to go once or twice a week. I think I am going to step up my training at home and focus on my own preparation for each test and not worry with comparing my skills to others or evaluating the skills of others. I can only be focused on improving myself. maybe I can also take your advice and find someone to train informally with outside of class.

As far as the "other school"... after reflecting on my conversation with the instructor, I am thinking you all are right. I also heard some negative feedback about an interview one of my classmates did with him. He got the same impression.

Thanks for the feedback.

[unknownstyle]

i know there will be people who hate me for this, but from what i have seen a lot of tkd schools have this similar problem. im not downing tkd as an art because it is effective when taught correctly. but i get tired of seeing 10 year old blackbelts, and seeing tkd blackbelts being beaten to death at tournaments. this is the same with every art but you see it more among tkd because its the one that is most pleasing to the eye, i mean how many of you can actually tell me that you would not like to be able to do some of the hogh flying kicks and such. but the truth is in actual combat they have little to no use. i think if some instructors put the same amount of focus on other aspects of training as they did with things of that nature we would be having a totally different conversation.

its just my opinion, not meaning to down anyone or to disrespect anyone here.

[ninjanurse]

A few observations:

1. I have studied several styles and have observed that percentage wise you will not see any more "low quality" black belts in TKD than any other style as it is relative to the numbers of participants. Every style has it's strengths and weakness. If you like your style-stay with it.

2. Students that feel they are not ready to test are usually the ones that are most successful at later levels. Humility is a quality that makes you much more teachable.

3. It is the instructors responsibility to make sure each student reaches his/her potential and you have to trust that they are doing the right thing....however, there are many out there that have no business teaching in the first place and if you are unlucky enough to have stumbled upon one of them you need to find another place to train.

4. Cultural differences aside, an instructor should be able to dialogue with students in an honest and compassionate way. If you are serious about changing schools check out many before making a decision.

[tallgeese]

Not hating on you unknown, but I think part of that is probibly due to the large numbers of people who study TKD. Proportionally, they probibly have more people than any other two arts nation wide. Maybe some of the bigger karate confederations come close, I don't know.

But anyone with any sort of organizational size will have a few slip thru. With TKD, there are just that many more involved.

[Truestar]

Another thing you have to understand is your instructor's business aspect of the school. If he was the hardcore instructor that wouldn't promote anybody until they were truly ready younger students wouldn't be likely to stick with it. And most schools have a lot of younger students from what I've gathered in my area.

Adults are more likely to try harder, and understand their abilities and responsibility. Which makes them generally a more lax customer. An adult can take criticism such as "you need more passion" or "you need to work on your stances" and realize they need to completely adjust themselves. In my experience when you tell a kid to fix something they think that if they can fix it right there they are qualified, or that if they remember it next class they are qualified. They don't understand as well as adults that "deeper stances" or "snappy technique" is something they need to remember for the rest of their lives. This means their attention from the martial arts can weaken or divert, and their goes potentially hundreds of dollars worth of customers.

Does your school end up producing good martial artists through a few years training? If no is it due to the students ambition? Their desire to do well may be different than yours, and if you take it more seriously then just do so. Make yourself ready for that test and don't worry about the other testees, worry about yourself and how you are going to turn out.

[DWx]

Just sticking up for TKD here...

Like ninjanurse and tallgeese said, compared to other MA, TKD is probably the most popular and well known so although there are a lot of poor standard blackbelts, proportionally-wise it may not be as bad as it seems.

And as for high and flying kicks, I have mixed feelings about this. I think they can work for some people but not for everyone and you shouldn't really rely on them too much. From personal experience, I have been on the receiving end of a flying roundhouse which came out of nowhere from a kid who is about 6 inches shorter than me and about a 1/3 of my body weight. The kick totally stunned me and I was wearing a headguard at the time and he had foot pads on. These types of kicks can work but you have to be able to use them competently and have to use them at the right moment to have the proper effect.