Kyokushin Bias Against Defense

[The BB of C]

Two days ago (Saturday, October 11th, 2008) I attended a Kyokushin tournament.

Before I start asking questions of the Kyokushin practitioners here, I would like you to know something about myself. When I see different people fighting, I see a strategy scale. The scale is Brawling, Offensive, Counter Offensive, Perfect Medium, Defensive Counter, Defense, and then Passive. I'll assume most of you know what the strategies in the scale look like in combat. Personally, I function best on Defensive Counters. I have for as long as I can remember fighting. In sparring and self defense alike, whenever I have taken anything but Defensive Counter, I lose. This means that I block a lot and wait for the hole in my opponent's offense.

At the Kyokushin tournament I went to in May, 2008 (9:29, white demo uniform and red belt), I used my Defensive Counter strategy after a bad defeat from using a Brawling strategy in January, 2008 (9:23, black shirt with black pants). Anyway, if you watch from 9:23-forward in the May, 2008 video, you'll notice a few things. I get backed up a lot and when I throw attacks, I misjudge the distance and miss (or in the case of the tornado kick - hesitate in mid air). However, when my opponent (traditional uniform, green belt) leaves himself open, he soon finds himself on the ground. After two tied rounds, the center judge decides in the favor of my opponent. A lot of people from many styles, including Kyokushin, have told me I won that fight in all reality. For the longest time I thought I got points taken off from the backfist to his head. Then I heard it was because he was backing me up. However, that's my strategy. If I move into a barrage like that, I'll take twice as much damage as I need to and I'll end up brawling again.

In October of 2008 (not videotaped), I noticed the same thing from the Tae Kwon Do practitioners that were there too. They used similar strategies to me (only way better due to skill level) and as a result were backed up by the opponent and later the fight was called against them even though most of the attacks they connected, connected harder than the ones from the offensive opponents.

I would speak for myself on the subject of the October tournament, however was using a Counter Offensive strategy and (like always), my poor offensive skills left me open and I took a hard side kick to my ribcage and lost. (On an unrelated note, I've taken those kicks many times before. That was the first time in competition it has actually done damage, but under Kyokushin rules, it scored him the only point he needed. In self defense situations, I was able to recover quickly enough and counter the follow-up attack from my opponents while I was still on the ground).

The experience led me to ask a couple questions of myself that I could not answer. This is where I would like the Kyokushin practitioners to shed some light. Keep in mind that I am not deliberately attacking the Kyokushin style or the Kyokushin sport. I am just curious.

Does the style of Kyokushin's typically-offensive tactics create a bias to defensive tactics in the Kyokushin sport?

What (in your opinion) is the ratio of offensive-scale to defensive-scale fighters in the Kyokushin sport?

How often (in your experience) does the offensive-scale fighter trump the defensive-scale fighters, or the defensive-scale fighters defeat the offensive-scale fighters, in the Kyokushin sport?

Is a Kyokushin sport competition the place for a defensive-scale fighter at all?

If no, what (in your opinion) is the best kind of full-contact competition for a defensive-scale fighter?

If yes, what can a defensive-scale fighter do to improve his offensive skills or work towards Perfect Medium?

I look foreword to reading your responses.

[AlwaysInTraining]

In Kyokushin we have 2 styles of tournament there is 1. Clicker and 2 Knockdown. The way in which these work is that points are scored by gaining what is known as a clean hit on your opponent by getting your strike/kick in and out as quickly as possible. Now instead of getting the hit in and out and then stopping to ackowledge the point by the refferee (like a lot of shotokan karate styles do) you continue to carry on getting as many clean hits as possible (points) for the rounds allotted time (usually 3 mins). This means that every point gained can be countered by your opponent because he has exactly the same agenda as you 2 get as many points as possible. This creates a very fast flowing fight with attacks and counters and counter counters which is scored by 3 refferees watching up close everything that is happeninng.

With Clicker this is done with the minimum of contact which means that more points are scored because you are able to go faster. Knockdown is full contact (accepting for various areas of the body) and is not as fast due to the strength and power needed to get points. Now either style of compertition (Clicker or Knockdown) doesnt really lend its self to a defenceive counter style as the main point of it is if you get one point get another one and another and another and so on inorder to win.

Reading from what you have said here:

"However, when my opponent (traditional uniform, green belt) leaves himself open, he soon finds himself on the ground. After two tied rounds, the center judge decides in the favor of my opponent. A lot of people from many styles, including Kyokushin, have told me I won that fight in all reality. For the longest time I thought I got points taken off from the backfist to his head. Then I heard it was because he was backing me up."

As your opponent was making you back up it, although you had tied for 2 rounds, the fight was given to your opponent because of the fact that he was pushing more. To the judge he appears to be trying for that point and another and another more which is much more the spirit of the compertiton. By the way im not in anyway saying that you werent trying its just that is my interpretation of what has happened.

The tournament that you went to on the 11th of October was our regional Knockdown. As that is full contact when you took that kick in the ribs it was at a much higher level of contact than you were probably expecting hence why it caught you off guard.

Anyway to answer your questions

1. Does the style of Kyokushin's typically-offensive tactics create a bias to defensive tactics in the Kyokushin sport?

No it doesnt we practice both offensive and defensive stragies when training but have you ever come across the saying that to attack is the best defence.

2. What (in your opinion) is the ratio of offensive-scale to defensive-scale fighters in the Kyokushin sport?

70/30 Offensive/defensive at times depending on the fighter. Like i said we do train for both and in a compertition however the pace of the fight can lead you to beleave that the fighters are doing nothing but attacking. However most attacks are followed by counters from the opponent which if the fighter is good he will block defensively. Thus createing a flow and balance in the fighting style and fight. (Ive just realised this sounds very complicated contact me if anyone doesnt understand)

3. How often (in your experience) does the offensive-scale fighter trump the defensive-scale fighters, or the defensive-scale fighters defeat the offensive-scale fighters, in the Kyokushin sport?

The aim in the compertition is to get a point and another and another and so on until youve won. The best fighters are more offense orentated in order to do that. The answer is probably 70% of the time the more offensive will win.

4. Is a Kyokushin sport competition the place for a defensive-scale fighter at all?

I dont beleave so. If someone scores a point against you they will try for another and so on and eventually you will get overrun.

5. If no, what (in your opinion) is the best kind of full-contact competition for a defensive-scale fighter?

Try Shotokan Karate. Everypoint gained the round is stopped and the score recognised. (if there are shotokan practitions on here that disagree with this pleasse correct me but i did Shotokan for 4 years and thats how we did it)

6. If yes, what can a defensive-scale fighter do to improve his offensive skills or work towards Perfect Medium?

If you want to become a better balanced fighter then i suggest that you try many diffrent styles and as many diffrent ways of fighting as you can and learn from them all and above all practice as much as possible.

Anyway hope that helps message me if anyone doesnt understand or wants points clarified.

P.s I do these comps myself in kyokushin just in case anyone was wondering.

[Dobbersky]

My fellow MA, The BB o' C

I was impressed with the quality of the Kata that was performed. Excellent. Is there a Bunkai (application) for the kata you performed?

I watched the first fight and its was a nice amateur fight, the Kyokushin guy (I couldn't see what belt he had on -I'm colour blind) looked like he'd not competed much or 'sparred' much in competition. His techniques were to all over. I saw a lot of 'telegraphed' techniques.

If you like competition, I would recommend, once you are ready, taking part in a open Kyokushin/Ashihara 50/100-man kumite or even the Sabaki Challenge hosted by Kancho Ninomiya (from Denver) not to sure where in the US it is held but it is a very popular multi-style knockdown competition.

Most AshiharaKa/EnshinKa that I know are counter-strikers as most of our kata are combat/kumite orientated.

Kyokushin/Seidokan is a excellent training ground for full contact, ask Semmi Schlitz (K-1 World champ 2006, 2007 & 2008).

Finally Well-done in achieving the positions/trophies that you won.

It takes a lot courage to attend a tournament and my full respects go out to you.

Osu!!!!