Beating the Teacher

[joesteph]

Even with the equal desire to live, if it would be your time to die then it would have been your time to die . . .

This doesn't sound like martial arts to me.

. . . but most instructors never fully teach their students everything . . .

This sounds like less martial arts knowledge every generation. Brought to a logical conclusion, there would be no MA knowledge beyond brawling if this were so. Why would an instructor do such a thing?

. . . just in case, cases like that were to occur, as they occassionally did in feudal japan and occupied china.

Since we live in the present, and life-and-death struggles between students and their instructors are rare (nonexistent?), I still don't follow. Traymond, why would an instructor hold back MA knowledge? This would go on for generations until the art is no more. Why would an instructor of today do such a thing?

Assuming we had equal desire to live and equal skill levels, the younger and faster person would have won. That was me. One day, it will no longer be me. That's just the natural process. Fortunately, I will never have to know for sure.

Very likely true, ps1. That's why soldiers in the field are within certain age parameters. By and large, the military wants neither those who have seen too few summers nor too many.

[Traymond]

Joe is soo bahk do, your onky martial art knowledge?..

It has no buddhist or shinto beliefs, nor does it have he concept of bushido in it.

The budo arts have the concept that if it is your time to die, that it is no matter what. No matter what knowledge or skill you have, the fighter your fighting could be better and you may not even know it.

Joe, does your instructor truly trust you enough to show you hidden techniques that could potentially kill, can he truly 100% share a tool of death, a technique that is meant to kill, with you? My teachers came straight out and told all of us that many things he will not teach unless you have been with him for forty or more years.

I know techniques that I would never teach my students, just for the simple fact that they are not mature enough and most are older than I am.

Now we are on Karma, refer back to shinto, buddhist and bushido concepts.

And I notice you chose not to comment on the last paragraph, fair enough, haha.

[Kuma]

During my last belt test, the final requirement was sparring for 20 consecutive minutes with a fresh partner every few minutes. My sensei was the last to go naturally, so he could motivate me to finish.

My proudest moment of that test was, despite being exhausted and feeling like roadkill, I managed to score an osoto gari on my sensei (far from picture perfect, but I got it). Naturally the rest of the fight was his, but afterwards not only did I feel excited about the test and getting that takedown but he too complimented me and had questions as to how I saw him open for it, what I did, etc.

To me that's the sign of a true teacher: one who learns from you just as much as you learn from him.

[Traymond]

To me that's the sign of a true teacher: one who learns from you just as much as you learn from him.

Very well spoken Bear, very well spoken.

[bushido_man96]

In Karate: I never did so in front of the rest of the students. However, I regularly defeated my teacher in our private lessons. He always told me it was an honor to lose to me and that it demonstrated he did his job well.

In BJJ: I'm not able to defeat my instructor easily yet. If I were able to do so, I would follow the same etiquette as I did in Karate.

In Chuan Fa: I only got the better of Master McGinnis once. It was honestly dumb luck. Wasn't much of an issue here. I could probably beat him now. But would do so only in private.

I can see why you took this approach, ps1. Was there a point in training in class at which you realized that you could beat your instructor easily, and then decided that you should back off? How gradually, or how abruptly, did you realize this?

It was gradual. A combination of my maturation, my instructor growing older, and my constant and hard training. If I'm lucky, one day a student of mine will be able to do the same to me.

Gotcha. You are lucky, though. At least your teacher(s) still work(ed) with you and sparred with you. I have not been so fortunate.

[bushido_man96]

Even with the equal desire to live, if it would be your time to die then it would have been your time to die...

It all has to do with timing and karma.

I don't really buy into either of these ideas. I don't think we are all on a preset timetable, where it doesn't really matter what our actions or decisions are. I am in control of my future, my present, etc. Sure, there are some things that are out of our control, those are circumstances that we may not be able to do anything about. However, when it gets down to nut-crunchin' time, I don't feel that it is already decided between "me or him" as to who wins/loses or lives/dies. Its up to me to make the decisions necessary to either fight and win, or survive and escape.

Here's a favorite quote of mine: "Battle does not favor the righteous or the just; it favors the prepared."

[Traymond]

And that what makes everything wonderful, we all have our own opinions through martial arts, that how we grow and learn with each other.

[Tiger1962]

............but most instructors never fully teach their students everything................

I understand what you mean and I think (at least in situations *I've* seen) the reason is the instructors believe that the student will be *hungry* for more knowledge and keep coming back, thus continuing to pay tuition...which means the instructor retains or *hopes to retain* students. But, this can backfire on the instructor because there are some students who, if you keep them on the same technique or the same lesson plan over and over and over, they will quit or get bored and NOT return to the dojo.

[joesteph]

Joe is soo bahk do, your onky martial art knowledge?..

No, Traymond. When younger, I was tutored in Isshinryu, took Tae Kwon Do classes, and also studied Taiji both in classes and in combination with a friend who took more advanced classes in his hometown.

Joe, does your instructor truly trust you enough to show you hidden techniques that could potentially kill . . .

My instructor points out how injury, moderate to severe, potentially lethal, can occur when she teaches us. The benefit of her pointing this out is that she then has us practice control, so that we students train without hospitalizing--or burying--one another.

[C]an he truly 100% share a tool of death, a technique that is meant to kill, with you?

Do you have a preoccupation with killing, Traymond? Like the majority of the members of these forums, I'd rather not kill anybody. Perhaps this will be of interest to you:

"Build rather than destroy; Avoid rather than check; Check rather than hurt; Hurt rather than maim; Maim rather than kill; For all life is precious; Nor can any be replaced."

It's Shaolin, of course, and I quoted it from The Harmonious Fist Chinese Association's web site. The URL is:

http://www.harmoniousfist.com

And I notice you chose not to comment on the last paragraph . . .

My comment is that I think it's just great that this ninety-year-old is as good as he was when he was half his age.