Origins of Tamashiwara?

[Wa-No-Michi]

Question for AJ and Wa-No-Michi:

You must have studied Japanese. Did you do so only in the US, or did you visit Japan?

Well my Sensei isn't Japanese but he speaks it well. I also train regularly with the Japanese instructors from the Wado-kai who are based in Japan.

Mainly though I am a bit of a "Nipponophile". I like most things Japanese including the language.

I am no expert though by any stretch of the imagination

[Wado-AJ]

wa-no-michi,

do we know each other?

[Wa-No-Michi]

wa-no-michi,

do we know each other?

I guess there is a chance. The Wado community is a fairly close knit one after all.

[moriniuk]

I'm not 100% sure about the correct pronunciation of Japanese words or the grammar, but I've seen these words written in various books in various ways.

For example, Mas. Oyama's books refer to Gyaku Tsuki etc and Otsuka's book refers to both Gyaku Tsuki and Kiba Tachi etc. I'd be suprised if it wasn't a native Japanese speaker who translated these books.

I stand by my statement that unless there is an official way to translate a language into English, such as the Chinese Pinyin system, then there isn't an incorrect way to write a word. The way you spell a word could depend on your own accent.

Many people in southern England will pronounce a "u" with the sound of an "a" as in cap. A Londoner would pronounce it that way, but I am from Manchester in the north and would pronounce it different. I think I pronounce it correct, (which I do!), but the Londoner will tell me otherwise.

Back on topic. I did wonder myself if there was a link between sword test cutting and board breaking. But isn't the test cutting a Japanese thing which would have been practiced long before Karate reached Japan?

[Wa-No-Michi]

I'm not 100% sure about the correct pronunciation of Japanese words or the grammar, but I've seen these words written in various books in various ways.

For example, Mas. Oyama's books refer to Gyaku Tsuki etc and Otsuka's book refers to both Gyaku Tsuki and Kiba Tachi etc. I'd be suprised if it wasn't a native Japanese speaker who translated these books.

Hi moriniuk, I haven't read any of Mas. Oyama's books but if they are anything like Otsuka's book the translation probably leaves a lot to be desired.

Factor into this, that the translators were probably not Karate-ka nor were the printers, editors, type setters etc. (let alone Japanese), and there is a wonder you can understand any of the book at all.

Otsuka's book however is the work of a genius and this permeates through the bad translation and type setting etc., as I am sure Oyama's does too.

Without doubt, the best way to understand Japanese used in karate (and how best to write it) is to train with Japanese Instructors.

Back on topic. I did wonder myself if there was a link between sword test cutting and board breaking. But isn't the test cutting a Japanese thing which would have been practiced long before Karate reached Japan?

Well I guess it was, and like most things karate based, when they arrived on the shores of mainland Japan, they were given Japanese names.

So perhaps it was an easy label to attach to the process.

[Wado-AJ]

I'm not 100% sure about the correct pronunciation of Japanese words or the grammar, but I've seen these words written in various books in various ways.

For example, Mas. Oyama's books refer to Gyaku Tsuki etc and Otsuka's book refers to both Gyaku Tsuki and Kiba Tachi etc. I'd be suprised if it wasn't a native Japanese speaker who translated these books.

I stand by my statement that unless there is an official way to translate a language into English, such as the Chinese Pinyin system, then there isn't an incorrect way to write a word. The way you spell a word could depend on your own accent.

Many people in southern England will pronounce a "u" with the sound of an "a" as in cap. A Londoner would pronounce it that way, but I am from Manchester in the north and would pronounce it different. I think I pronounce it correct, (which I do!), but the Londoner will tell me otherwise.

Back on topic. I did wonder myself if there was a link between sword test cutting and board breaking. But isn't the test cutting a Japanese thing which would have been practiced long before Karate reached Japan?

Mr. Ohtsuka's book was translated by Shingo Ishida.

accents, ok. but there is an official Dutch way, an official English way and thus also an official Japanese way. You can write things like you say it, or write things at they should be written.

it is gyakuzuki.

however, a friend of mine went to Japanese school and writes:

jyunzuki (I do junzuki) but there is a significant difference between the two. Also, I would say: ido kihon. While WadoKai dvd spells: Idou kihon.

chinto - chintou.

There is nothing nessecary to change those as the "u" and "y" are very small sounds. However tameshiwarA or tameshiwarI is a big difference.

[moriniuk]

Stumbled across something whilst reading today. Please don't chastise me for it if it doesn't agree with your opinion. If you can see an obvious flaw in the suggestion, then feel free to comment.

Could it have arisen from the need to punch, strike or kick through the wooden armour worn by the Samurai?

[Wado-AJ]

could bE!

[Wa-No-Michi]

Yes, I have heard this explanation before, and agree it is a possibility.

In the most part though, I think that the Jujutsu techniques developed by the Samurai would have been more appropriate against a heavily armoured oponent.

This leads me to believe that the practice of Tameshiwari was then, and remains today, a test of ones spirit.

[joesteph]

Could it have arisen from the need to punch, strike or kick through the wooden armour worn by the Samurai?

In the most part though, I think that the Jujutsu techniques developed by the Samurai would have been more appropriate against a heavily armoured oponent.

This leads me to believe that the practice of Tameshiwari was then, and remains today, a test of ones spirit.

I've read that it's a fallacy that the samurai wore wooden armor. Armor in different societies has often started with leather, to protect the body against slashes, and that metal was the next step in armor technology, not wood. There is no evidence, nor would I expect there to be, that the samurai were behind other societies, using wood before metal.

The development of an unarmed martial art flows with one finding himself without his weapon and facing another warrior, possibly similarly weaponless at that moment, but likely with one. Things like this happen in the universe of battle. You fight him, as adeptly and brutally as possible, until you can recover your weapon.

The pine boards that we break are, individually, about as strong as a rib. Men who in the past developed powerful strikes against wood were developing powerful strikes against the ribcage and other parts of the skeletal system. This prepares you to fight armorless men. They weren't breaking though metal--we have to drop the fallacy of wooden armor--and all men in a Japanese battle weren't necessarily samurai, just as all men in medieval European battles weren't all knights.

Wood breaking does help gauge student progress, like empirical evidence, and it's a psychological lift for the practitioner, especially an up-and-coming one, to possess a tangible result.

If we re-read Wa-No-Michi's conclusion, as quoted above, I'd say that, along with gauging progress, it's likely on the mark.