Judo's Unfortunate Ground Fighting State

[Treebranch]

I couldn't agree more. Very well put. I'm always telling people that BJJ should have never gotten rid of all the Judo throws and instead they incorporated Wrestling throws. No disrespect to Wrestling, but Judo throws and BJJ are from the same family and would work seamlessly.

Fact is that an a self defense modality, Judo is far more complete. In a real fight, if you grab and throw some knuckle-head, he is likely to stick his arm out and dislocate it or something. Fight over. Judo has MORE than enough groundwork for 90% of the population. They dont NEED to specialize in groundwork.

Also, there are a LOT of different schools of judo. A lot of them are heavy on groundwork, especially the Eastern European schools. BJJ is good for what it is about, but Judo covers the entires spectrum of grappling. If you put a judo black belt in a bjj class for a year, he will be up to snuff with groundwork in no time. If you put a bjj guy in a judo class for a year, he will still get thrown on his head by a judo BB. Plus gripping techniques in judo will give a bjj fits if he has clothes on. Look at Royce and Yoshida. Yoshida was passed his prime and never that good in groundwork. He handled Royce in the first fight. He didnt even train in the second and still didnt get finished.

[ps1]

I couldn't agree more. Very well put. I'm always telling people that BJJ should have never gotten rid of all the Judo throws and instead they incorporated Wrestling throws. No disrespect to Wrestling, but Judo throws and BJJ are from the same family and would work seamlessly.

This isn't exactly true. I do concede that many, even a majority, of the BJJ schools have excluded judo style throws. I even feel it's a mistake to a point. However, this is because many judo throws leave the tori (thrower) open to a ground attack and having little control once the fight hits the ground. In a Judo match, it's over. However, in a BJJ match, if you hit the ground without positive control of the opponent, you're likely in trouble.

The inclusion of many wrestling takedowns and throws is simply a matter of numbers. That is, many more people practice wrestling worldwide than Judo. In addition, wrestlers are more used to needing to keep control once they hit the ground. That allows it to blend very well into bjj.

I do agree, however, with kenpo4life. I believe that the average judoka will have enough ground to handle the great majority of the population. That's assuming they practice it regularly. Additionally, we have a judo bb that trains with us and has picked up BJJ rather quickly. But that can be said of BJJ practitioners learning Judo, BJJ to sambo, sambo to judo, judo to sambo ect... Grappling is an art that is mostly about feeling. Once you have gained the ability to feel your opponent's openings, it translates easily from one art to the next. The only thing that changes is the grips and rules.

John C:

We regularly train without using our hands. It trains the practitioner to use his hips more effectively. This training can and should begin at white belt. Sure, they don't do well with it. It makes them better later however.

[bushido_man96]

However, in a BJJ match, if you hit the ground without positive control of the opponent, you're likely in trouble.

The inclusion of many wrestling takedowns and throws is simply a matter of numbers. That is, many more people practice wrestling worldwide than Judo. In addition, wrestlers are more used to needing to keep control once they hit the ground. That allows it to blend very well into bjj.

This is a good observation, ps1. I would not have pieced this together, but it makes good sense.

Edited December 11, 2008 by bushido_man96

[Treebranch]

"However, this is because many judo throws leave the tori (thrower) open to a ground attack and having little control once the fight hits the ground. In a Judo match, it's over. However, in a BJJ match, if you hit the ground without positive control of the opponent, you're likely in trouble."

Joe agree with you to an extent. I see what you are saying about the thrower being open to a ground attack. However if 2 BJJers know the same Judo throws, the person that gets the throw might have the upper hand from that point forward. Also, sometimes the throw knocked some wind out of the opponent and often times is disoriented which would give you more time to go straight to a submission. I just feel that Judo and Traditional Jujutsu throws should be looked at more carefully, because feel they would fit better with BJJ.

[Treebranch]

Check out the way Dave Camarillo goes from throws to submissions and notice how he keeps his back straight after the throw so that it would be very difficult for the guy on the ground to attack from there.

[ps1]

However, in a BJJ match, if you hit the ground without positive control of the opponent, you're likely in trouble.

The inclusion of many wrestling takedowns and throws is simply a matter of numbers. That is, many more people practice wrestling worldwide than Judo. In addition, wrestlers are more used to needing to keep control once they hit the ground. That allows it to blend very well into bjj.

This is a good observation, Joe. I would not have pieced this together, but it makes good sense.

I wrote that stuff, not joesteph. Thanks though.

[ps1]

Check out the way Dave Camarillo goes from throws to submissions and notice how he keeps his back straight after the throw so that it would be very difficult for the guy on the ground to attack from there.

This is a good demo video. However, the koshi guruma that it shows him doing is very seldom hit, even in judo matches, in this manner. That is, you need to turn hard into the throw since you only hold the head and not the underhook. Most of the time you end up going down with the opponent. Because you hit the ground without the underhook, you are left vulnerable to getting your back taken.

For this reason, any throw that ends in hon kesa gatame (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/osaekomi/hon_kesa_gatame.gif) should be avoided. Rather, throws that end in kuzure kesa gatame or makure kesa gatame (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/osaekomi/kuzure_kesa_gatame.gif) (http://www.judoinfo.com/images/osaekomi/makura_kesa_gatame.gif).

So it's more a matter of deciding which throws you can do with momentum and still end with a strong controlling position.

[Treebranch]

Dave's amazing. Check out some of his matches.

You are exactly right and that's my point. Pick the throws will keep you in a strong controlling position.

[bushido_man96]

However, in a BJJ match, if you hit the ground without positive control of the opponent, you're likely in trouble.

The inclusion of many wrestling takedowns and throws is simply a matter of numbers. That is, many more people practice wrestling worldwide than Judo. In addition, wrestlers are more used to needing to keep control once they hit the ground. That allows it to blend very well into bjj.

This is a good observation, Joe. I would not have pieced this together, but it makes good sense.

I wrote that stuff, not joesteph. Thanks though.

Yeah, that was my bad. Sorry about that, ps1. I hadn't seen you in a while; you took me by surprise! Corrections made.

[bushido_man96]

Check out the way Dave Camarillo goes from throws to submissions and notice how he keeps his back straight after the throw so that it would be very difficult for the guy on the ground to attack from there.

That guy looks pretty solid! Watching the throws into the submissions like that, does make them look quite effective. Is the uke trying to resist, though? Or is he playing for the commercial?