Japanese style influences on Kuk Sool Won?

[The BB of C]

There really just isn't any "original" Korean MAs out there from their "ancient" past.

I do believe Kuk Sool is the closest thing to that though.

As far as I know, it was founded in 1956 by In Hyuk Suh who studied the martial art of the royal palace, the martial art of the Korean Buddist temple, tribal martial arts, accupuncture, and gymnastics. They're all supposed to be Korean forms that have been used throughout the history of the Korean penninsula before the Japanese takeover.

[tenshinka]

There really just isn't any "original" Korean MAs out there from their "ancient" past.

I do believe Kuk Sool is the closest thing to that though.

As far as I know, it was founded in 1956 by In Hyuk Suh who studied the martial art of the royal palace, the martial art of the Korean Buddist temple, tribal martial arts, accupuncture, and gymnastics. They're all supposed to be Korean forms that have been used throughout the history of the Korean penninsula before the Japanese takeover.

Kuk Sool Won was founded by Sun, In Hyuk...There was a whole Kuk Sool movement, before the Won cam along...Kuk Sool Kwan was founded by Kim Woo Tak, and predated GM Suh's efforts by quite bit...Then there was the Kuk Sool Hwe, of which GM Lee, Joo Bang was a member, as were many others. Kuk Sool was a combined effort between many Korean GM's.

Josteph, I am a HUGE fan of GM Hwang, Kee...he was an AWESOME innovator. However, I keep going back to the fact that the Soo Bahk Do hyung bear more resemblance Long Fist, and Tai'Chi, than the MYDBTJ material, which would go back to GM's study with Yang Jeng-Kou (Yang Kuk Jin).

It seems to me that GM took the information that he learned in Manchuria, and combined it with what he taught himself and observed of Kong Soo Do, and used the MYDBTJ in a fashion so as to give him inspiration to innovate...

fwiw,

--josh

[joesteph]

Josteph, I am a HUGE fan of GM Hwang, Kee...he was an AWESOME innovator. However, I keep going back to the fact that the Soo Bahk Do hyung bear more resemblance Long Fist, and Tai'Chi, than the MYDBTJ material, which would go back to GM's study with Yang Jeng-Kou (Yang Kuk Jin).

Interesting that you mention Tai Chi, Josh. I've looked ahead at upcoming forms, and one by GM Hwang Kee is called Chil Sung E Ro Hyung (Seven Star Form #2). Just past the middle point in the hyung is a series of moves that reminds me of a section of a long Taiji form I'd worked on with a friend when I studied it in the past, but with the movements given greater emphasis in this hyung. Others too? Possibly; I'll know at some point.

It seems to me that GM took the information that he learned in Manchuria, and combined it with what he taught himself and observed of Kong Soo Do, and used the MYDBTJ in a fashion so as to give him inspiration to innovate...

I recognize that he was proud of his Korean heritage and, in finding the subak reference, thought it the best reference to make. Some call him a martial arts protege; some call him a philosopher (Moo Duk Kwan); I'd call him both.

[tenshinka]

Josteph, I am a HUGE fan of GM Hwang, Kee...he was an AWESOME innovator. However, I keep going back to the fact that the Soo Bahk Do hyung bear more resemblance Long Fist, and Tai'Chi, than the MYDBTJ material, which would go back to GM's study with Yang Jeng-Kou (Yang Kuk Jin).

Interesting that you mention Tai Chi, Josh. I've looked ahead at upcoming forms, and one by GM Hwang Kee is called Chil Sung E Ro Hyung (Seven Star Form #2). Just past the middle point in the hyung is a series of moves that reminds me of a section of a long Taiji form I'd worked on with a friend when I studied it in the past, but with the movements given greater emphasis in this hyung. Others too? Possibly; I'll know at some point.

It seems to me that GM took the information that he learned in Manchuria, and combined it with what he taught himself and observed of Kong Soo Do, and used the MYDBTJ in a fashion so as to give him inspiration to innovate...

I recognize that he was proud of his Korean heritage and, in finding the subak reference, thought it the best reference to make. Some call him a martial arts protege; some call him a philosopher (Moo Duk Kwan); I'd call him both.

Hi Joe,

Interestingly enough, GM used to teach Tai Chi, the Yang Style 88 form in particular, and it was detailed in his "Soo Bahk Do Dae Kam" in which it was referred to as the "Tae Keuk Kwon"...He also taught Long Fist Kung Fu in the form of So Rim Jang Kwan (which was Paldan curriculum in MDK at one time, then later eedan, and then dropped)...HC Hwang does double broadswords, and there is a fan form floating around as well.

The Tai'Chi references in the Chil Sung hyung are numerous. I know that the USSBDMDKF teaches Chil Sung Ee Ro first, as it has more hard stlye movements...But if you look are Chil Sung Il Ro, there are classic Tai'Chi postures scattered throughout, Single Whip, Work The Shutters, Single Ward Off etc. All of the Chil Sung forms are very Tai Chi influenced. Is it no coincidence then, that the Yuk Rho look very Long Fist Kung Fu inspired??? GM's work that details his research into the MYDBTJ, is actually the "Hwa Sun" (Pure Flower) form, but I guess that is Childan stuff now, and there are actually two versions of it, one for the public (in SBD Vol. 2), and then the real one lol

take care,

--josh

[bushido_man96]

There really just isn't any "original" Korean MAs out there from their "ancient" past.

I do believe Kuk Sool is the closest thing to that though.

As far as I know, it was founded in 1956 by In Hyuk Suh who studied the martial art of the royal palace, the martial art of the Korean Buddist temple, tribal martial arts, accupuncture, and gymnastics. They're all supposed to be Korean forms that have been used throughout the history of the Korean penninsula before the Japanese takeover.

Yeaaaahh, but.....you would be hard pressed to find any Korean style that does not claim this. TKD is one of them as well. When I hear this kind of information on the "origins of the Korean styles" I take it with a grain of salt.

[bushido_man96]

There really just isn't any "original" Korean MAs out there from their "ancient" past.

I do believe Kuk Sool is the closest thing to that though.

In my art, Soo Bahk Do, there is seeking to go back to the oldest Korean martial art that Grandmaster Hwang Kee could find, su bak or subak. He translated the Muye Dobo Tongji, a book about three hundred years old, and found su bak under “Kwon Bup: Fist Fighting Method.” In the book I have, Muye Dobo Tongji: The Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts, it says (p. 311):

"t is recorded, 'The king watched the fist fighting (su bak) and archery contests.' In the note it is recorded that su bak is a martial art contest of wrestling." (parenthetic reference to su bak in text)

 

But in Wikipedia, it says:

 

"Subak, Soobak or Soo Bak-Gi is an ancient Korean martial art. Historically this term may be an older name for the Korean martial art of taekkyeon.

 

"The Subak style was created in the Korean kingdom of Goguryeo.

 

"It was a style heavy in the use of kicking as opposed to punching, and relied more on upright fighting styles as opposed to grappling and wrestling."

 

Subak is apparently very old, and its roots may be truly Korean, but what it originally entailed is likely simple and can be debated; time advancing gave it the opportunity to evolve.

 

I own and have read the Muye Dobo Tongji as well. It is a rather interesting book to read. I think that many of the Korean stylists, after the Japanese occupation, turned to sources like this to try to dig up a past for their country's Martial heritage. That is fine, but what is not fine is claiming that the arts of today are descended of these arts. Even here, we see two sources citing differing concepts of Subak. In the end, there just isn't enough evidence to link the styles. It is one thing to study the Martial heritage of Korea. It is another to call the Korean arts of today those of centuries past.

Edited September 16, 2008 by bushido_man96

[kansascityshuffle]

There really just isn't any "original" Korean MAs out there from their "ancient" past.

I do believe Kuk Sool is the closest thing to that though.

As far as I know, it was founded in 1956 by In Hyuk Suh who studied the martial art of the royal palace, the martial art of the Korean Buddist temple, tribal martial arts, accupuncture, and gymnastics. They're all supposed to be Korean forms that have been used throughout the history of the Korean penninsula before the Japanese takeover.

Yeaaaahh, but.....you would be hard pressed to find any Korean style that does not claim this. TKD is one of them as well. When I hear this kind of information on the "origins of the Korean styles" I take it with a grain of salt.

TKD, TSD, Hapkido and Hawarang Do try to make these kinds of claims. Don't even get me started on Gumdo...

[tenshinka]

Funny bit sis HRD has a connection to Kuk Sool...TKD is just an offshoot of Karate (as is Tang Soo Do, but I enjoy it none the less)...But something is different with the material that comes from the Kuk Sool lineage...

Gumdo does not make many crazy claims, most of them will tell you they are from Kendo...Unless you are Haidong Gumdo, which has a very made up history, and plus most of their material comes from Shim Gum Do...Which by the was, is a legit Buddhist Sword School...There is also MUYE20, and EeShipSaBan, which are recreating the native korean sword work from MYDBTJ http://muye24ki.or.kr

fwiw,

--josh

[DWx]

Funny bit sis HRD has a connection to Kuk Sool...TKD is just an offshoot of Karate (as is Tang Soo Do, but I enjoy it none the less)...But something is different with the material that comes from the Kuk Sool lineage...

How is Hwarang Do connected to Kuk Sool? I think most people take the line that HWD evolved similarly to the TKD Kwans and has very little to do with the Hwarang themselves. And I wouldn't necessarily say that TKD is just an offshoot of Karate. Depending on which Kwan sometimes the Chinese influence is equally important and there is definately a strong Korean element present in the system. You can attribute that to either TaeKyon or you can say it was a product of post-Japanese Korea trying to rebuild a cultural identity but its still there, sometimes much more than the Karate links.

IMHO nearly all of the modern Korean styles have been influenced in some way by the Japanese occupation and have very little to do with the ancient Korean styles such as Subak. Its all down to trying to Korea-fy themselves and get rid of Japanese elements.

[tenshinka]

How is Hwarang Do connected to Kuk Sool?

http://hwarang.org/Photojournal.html

I think most people take the line that HWD evolved similarly to the TKD Kwans and has very little to do with the Hwarang themselves.

See Above.

And I wouldn't necessarily say that TKD is just an offshoot of Karate.

When I started it was called "Korean Karate".

Depending on which Kwan sometimes the Chinese influence is equally important

Well, all of the Kwans were officially absorbed within the KTA, and Kukkiwon, they fully support Kukki Tae Kwon Do, and exist today, only in the form of social friendship clubs...That is with the exception of Ohdokwan (which became ITF), and no Chinese influence there. The other exception was Moo Duk Kwan which decided not to join the KTA, instead, formed the Dae Han Soo Bahk Do Hoi.

and there is definately a strong Korean element present in the system. You can attribute that to either TaeKyon or you can say it was a product of post-Japanese Korea trying to rebuild a cultural identity but its still there, sometimes much more than the Karate links.

There is definitely something there. This is attributed to the "can do" spirit of the Korean people (indomitable spirit), as well as their spirit of "Hongik Ingan", and sense of national pride and identity. They took a country left in ruins, and turned it into a thriving economic powerhouse. Under Japanese oppression, during the occupation (ending in 1945) they took what they had, and transformed it into something unique, and beautiful. It does not, however, change the fact that it was strongly rooted in Japanese Karate. I dont really give Tae Kyon too much credence as an influence on TKD...Choi Hong Hi claims to have studied it, but to me"it just dont add up" . Hwag Kee says he witnessed it, and secretly watched men training from afar, copying their movements, because he was refused to be a direct student, coincidentaly, Soo Bahk Do's kicks strongly resemble tae kyon as practiced by students from the Song Duk Ki lineage.

IMHO nearly all of the modern Korean styles have been influenced in some way by the Japanese occupation and have very little to do with the ancient Korean styles such as Subak. Its all down to trying to Korea-fy themselves and get rid of Japanese elements.

I'm confused, you just attributed Korean MA to a Tae Kyon influence, and said it was not so much Karate influence (see above post), and then this?

For the most part, I agree with the end of your post...But not all Korean MA fall under that lineage...Kuk Sool is definitely one of them, and their are others that were and are practiced in Buddhist temples still...Sun Moo Do, Iron Wheel Kwon Bup etc.