Japanese style influences on Kuk Sool Won?

[joesteph]

http://hwarang.org/Photojournal.html

I loved the vintage photos of each class/school. In the first, I noticed that each student is wearing a suit, not a do bok, but has his shoes off, of course. (I learned of a town in the past that had a number of Asian immigrants living in houses of their own. They were robbed more often than other homes. The police realized that burglars, who stake out before they break in, would know if someone were home or not if there were shoes--or no shoes--on the porch, outside the front door.) In the second photo, they're shoeless again, but I see a boy on Dad's lap and, unless I'm mistaken, there's a woman (likely the wife/mother) behind Dad.

And I wouldn't necessarily say that TKD is just an offshoot of Karate.

When I started it was called "Korean Karate".

When I studied Tae Kwon Do, Josh, it was the art of GM Duk Sung Son, who I had the privilege of meeting. He signed my copy of his book, Korean Karate, and the copyright is 1968, although my studying was in the '80s. When he visited my hometown, he spoke in heavily-accented English, but we followed a story he told that, shortly after moving to the US, he was working out in a park and was approached by a number of young toughs. I can't remember it well, but it seems he took out the loudest one, and announced to them (I can still see and hear him exclaim it) "Korean karate!"

There is definitely something there. . . . attributed to the "can do" spirit of the Korean people (indomitable spirit), as well as their spirit of "Hongik Ingan", and sense of national pride and identity.

In my art, Soo Bahk Do, the first of the Eight Principles is Yon Gi--meaning "brave energy," and translated into English as courage. It's also been explained to my young sons that when they say Yon Gi, they are saying "I can do it!"

Also in Soo Bahk Do, as Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan, there are the Ten Articles of Faith on Mental Training, the first of which is "Be loyal to one's country." The official explanation reads, "Sacrifice to fulfill your duty to your country and your people. This is based on the spirit of Hwa Rang."

IMHO nearly all of the modern Korean styles have been influenced in some way by the Japanese occupation and have very little to do with the ancient Korean styles such as Subak. Its all down to trying to Korea-fy themselves and get rid of Japanese elements.

I think, DWx, that all nations seek to find their roots, even if these be in the distant past, and realists know that there have been tremendous influences from Korea's "heavyweight" neighbors, China and Japan. The reaching back to subak and the hwa rang is like linking to an Adam and Eve in the Korean nation's martial art heritage. Romantic? Perhaps. Nationalistic? Likely. Lacking? Not necessarily; everything has a point of origin.

[DWx]

And I wouldn't necessarily say that TKD is just an offshoot of Karate.

When I started it was called "Korean Karate".

That doesn't mean its an offshoot. A lot of schools called it Korean Karate because they didn't have a name for it yet. Particularly when introducing Westerners to it because a lot of people knew what Karate was but they didn't know many other styles. It was probably becaucse most Westerners associated the term "Karate" with unarmed combat orignating from the East.

and there is definately a strong Korean element present in the system. You can attribute that to either TaeKyon or you can say it was a product of post-Japanese Korea trying to rebuild a cultural identity but its still there, sometimes much more than the Karate links.

There is definitely something there. This is attributed to the "can do" spirit of the Korean people (indomitable spirit), as well as their spirit of "Hongik Ingan", and sense of national pride and identity. They took a country left in ruins, and turned it into a thriving economic powerhouse. Under Japanese oppression, during the occupation (ending in 1945) they took what they had, and transformed it into something unique, and beautiful. It does not, however, change the fact that it was strongly rooted in Japanese Karate. I dont really give Tae Kyon too much credence as an influence on TKD...Choi Hong Hi claims to have studied it, but to me"it just dont add up" . Hwag Kee says he witnessed it, and secretly watched men training from afar, copying their movements, because he was refused to be a direct student, coincidentaly, Soo Bahk Do's kicks strongly resemble tae kyon as practiced by students from the Song Duk Ki lineage.

I don't deny that a lot of Korean MA comes from Japanese lineage. However I just don't think you can really call TKD an offshoot per se. I might be being a bit pedantic about the semantics but "offshoot" implies that Karate was the parent style and that TKD is a branch of it. I don't think this is really what TKD is. For a start the Karate influence itself comes from all over the place as those that did learn Karate didn't learn it from one source. And there are so many other elements to it that TKD doesn't exactly stem directly from Karate.

IMHO nearly all of the modern Korean styles have been influenced in some way by the Japanese occupation and have very little to do with the ancient Korean styles such as Subak. Its all down to trying to Korea-fy themselves and get rid of Japanese elements.

I'm confused, you just attributed Korean MA to a Tae Kyon influence, and said it was not so much Karate influence (see above post), and then this?

For the most part, I agree with the end of your post...But not all Korean MA fall under that lineage...Kuk Sool is definitely one of them, and their are others that were and are practiced in Buddhist temples still...Sun Moo Do, Iron Wheel Kwon Bup etc.

I never attributed Korean MA to authentic TaeKyon. I just said that there is something there that makes TKD and similar Korean styles distinctively Korean and there is a possibility that TaeKyon could be an explaination for this. However I also said it could be because of the effort to revive Korea's cultural identity by a concious effort to try to make these systems more Korean and less Japanese. Rather than being decendant from TaeKyon or containing real TaeKyon elements I personally think its more of a combination of "We hate all things Japanese, we love everything Korean" and "Hey anyone remember that old kicking game TaeKyon? Lets try to copy some of that and put it into our style to make it more Korean". Then you get the history stories of "This new Korean art came from our country's proud heritage and has nothing to with our Japanese oppressors" in order to further distance the styles from the Japanese methods. There was a discussion on the forum some months back where TaeKyon's influence was discussed: http://www.karateforums.com/tae-kyon-s-kicking-influence-vt31257.html

"Japanese influence" and "Japanese MA influnce" are not the same. I meant that the Japanese occupation had an effect on Korean MA and not just that Japanese MA had an effect on Korean MA. The Japanese occupation itself had a number of effects. Firstly they tried to erradicate all elements of Korean culture, including Korean methods of fighting, resulting in very little of the Korean MAs surviving. Aside from the Muye Jebo, Muye Dobo Tongji and what was continued underground nothing survived. Secondly they did expose the Koreans to Karate but they also exposed them to Chinese methods after some Koreans went to Manchuria and China. And finally once Korea was given independance the Koreans underwent a period of cultural revival to try to restablish themselves and recreate a national identity. With regards to this methods of "Korean" fighting were promoted. I also said "nearly all". I don't claim to know anything about Kuk Sool I was merely responding in agreement to the comment made about the majority of Korean arts claiming they come from an ancient lineage when in fact they most likely do not.

[bushido_man96]

How is Hwarang Do connected to Kuk Sool?

http://hwarang.org/Photojournal.html

It appears to me, then, that Kuk Sool is a derivative of Hapkido, which has its roots in Daito Ryu.

I dont really give Tae Kyon too much credence as an influence on TKD...Choi Hong Hi claims to have studied it, but to me"it just dont add up" . Hwag Kee says he witnessed it, and secretly watched men training from afar, copying their movements, because he was refused to be a direct student, coincidentaly, Soo Bahk Do's kicks strongly resemble tae kyon as practiced by students from the Song Duk Ki lineage.

I don't give any creedence to many of the Taek Kyon influences, either. Neither Choi's, or Hwang Ki's claims to have studied and learned it. I believe GM Bong Soo Hong also claimed to have studied the art, but doesn't ever mention the name of the master who taught it to him.

In all of the incidents that I have seen of the Taek Kyon claim, there is always one consitency: never a name of teacher given.

[tenshinka]

How is Hwarang Do connected to Kuk Sool?

http://hwarang.org/Photojournal.html

It appears to me, then, that Kuk Sool is a derivative of Hapkido, which has its roots in Daito Ryu.

Well, there more to the story...The photo journal is from the time of KUK SOOL HAPKIDO...Kuk Sool Hapkido was an attempt to blend Kuk Sool and Hapkido into one art, that group later split...Before that there was Kuk Sool (and in particular Kuk Sool Kwan of Kim Woo Tak, as well as the various material the comprised Kuk Sool before it was organized as Kuk Sool)...After Kuk Sool Hapkido, the Kuk Sool Won was founded...

Its a long puzzle, but Kuk Sool is not a derivative of Hapkido...If anything, its sources are much more Chinese influenced.

Edited September 16, 2008 by tenshinka

[bushido_man96]

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

[The BB of C]

I guess In Hyuk Suh was a part of that Kuk Sool Hapkido group then?

[tenshinka]

I guess In Hyuk Suh was a part of that Kuk Sool Hapkido group then?

Yes, he was...Until the group split, and came out as different factions...

In anycase, done right, Kuk Sool is one of the most effective training systems I have been exposed to...

[The BB of C]

It is pretty good.

How did your sources obtain the knowledge of how these styles fomulated?

[tenshinka]

It is pretty good.

How did your sources obtain the knowledge of how these styles fomulated?

I have spoken with many of the seniors on both sides (HRD, KSW, KSHKD etc) I just made it a personal hobby for a while...The resources are around, you just have to search for them

[unknownstyle]

if you looked up kyokushin karate history rather then kuk sool won you would see that the founder of kyokushin Mas Oyama was born in korea, this id where he began his study of the martial arts thus that is probably why it is so similar