Punching start point

[northerndragon]

Just to change the angle a bit, I've recently read a book that suggested that hand palm up just above the hip is better mechanically than and palm up at the armpit or high on the ribs, because the former allows the elbow joint to move correctly behind the punch, whereas the latter position doesn't.

FISH,

What book is this? I'm interested to read this too because if you read my most recent reply, after daily training with palm-up at hip level to having trialed the punch at chest/armpit level for experimentation I noticed marked muscles soreness. Muscle memory issue? or mechanics or structural integrity involved?

In sparring, I tend to keep my back hand on the hip because we are taught that, to "score" with a gyakuzuki, we have to withdraw the punching hand all the way back after the punch. I use my lead hand more or less as a jab to find my range, or to block the incoming technique of my opponent.

As for sparring hands: I note that at times I do not bring my hand ALL the way back after executing a punch. This is something I'm working on but in the heat of sparring it tends to "float" between the hip and somewhere in-between.

All > great posts.

[Fish]

The book is called Martial Mechanics. I can't remember the author. I found it on Amazon.

I think the not withdrawing the hand all the way back to the hip after the punch is quite common in the heat of kumite. I think it might also be unrealistic when trading punches "in real life" (but I don't know because I've had the good fortune not to have been in a "real" fight).

[Patrick]

Here's the book: http://www.amazon.com/Martial-Mechanics-Maximum-Results-Practice/dp/1583942114/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221496702&sr=8-1

It's by Phillip Starr.

[Zanshin]

As for the initial post on 'Starting Point' for all punches...I train with the hand starting point initiated at the hip. Reason for my question in the first place:

>I tried recently executing my Oi-zuki or Gyaku-zuki from the higher position one day when training at home. It seemed comfortable that day, but I noticed a drastic change in the muscular response the next day: I was very sore!<

This marked soreness I suppose is attributed to muscle-memory getting "tweaked" from a different start position, in this case higher.

Lastly:

I was interested in the notion of Hanmei ( using the 45 degree angle of the hips ) to generate power (twisting motion) into one's punch. Someone mentioned about the ''Hinge Point'' so my follow-up question is: Were you referencing Hanmei? Or the opposing influence that can weaken a punch?

Hi Eric,

Thanks for qualifying that, I knew I wasn't going mad and yes, as I said, it would be wrong to exclude boxing as example of how you should be able to start your punches from this position from an application point of view.

With reference to the position of your fist from a "traditional" karate point of view in "Kihon" (yes, thats basics tallgeese) It depends on your target area. But in general, if you are performing "Oi-tsuki" IMO the fist should not be "cranked" up too high. Why? because your shoulder will rise and the technique will have tension in it and be flawed.

That said, in Naihanchi kata, the fist is placed upward adjacent to the breast just prior to the Jodan Ura-tsuki. Importantly though the elbow stays in the same position and therefore the shoulders do not rise.

Also in Seishan Kata the fist is lowered due to the lower chudan (abdomen) strikes facilitated in this kata.

For basics though, to create good body mechanics and muscle memory, I would always suggest aligning the wrist bone against the top of the adjacent hip.

As far as the "Hinge point" is concerned this is quite difficult to explain in writing.

As I remember, my comment was as a result of a previous post about "Hiki-te" or the pulling back of the non punching arm. My concern here is that thinking of it this way can make the hips rotate around the spine rather than around the opposite hip. The hinge point or "fulcrum" point should always be the opposite hip to the hand with which you are punching.

You mention hanmi (half) as a hip position. Personally in Oi-tsuki I would say this was too much, but often it is good to train big when you are a beginner. Over time you will be able to generate the same amount of power using smaller moves / angles. I would say about 30 - 35 deg.

But styles vary, you should ask your instructor.

Z

[tallgeese]

[bushido_man96]

As for the initial post on 'Starting Point' for all punches:

...I see now that perhaps my question is directly influenced by tradition. And depending on the lineage and one's own preferences, the 'Starting Point' will invariably vary from style to style.

I'm not sure if tradition influences the answer to the question, or if preference influences it more. I think that it comes more from preference, and preference is reflected by the type of training that we receive.

[bushido_man96]

I think the not withdrawing the hand all the way back to the hip after the punch is quite common in the heat of kumite. I think it might also be unrealistic when trading punches "in real life" (but I don't know because I've had the good fortune not to have been in a "real" fight).

As for sparring hands: I note that at times I do not bring my hand ALL the way back after executing a punch. This is something I'm working on but in the heat of sparring it tends to "float" between the hip and somewhere in-between.

In our TKD class, for basics, forms, and one-step practice, the non-punching hand comes back under the ribs. For sparring, however, my hands start up like a Boxer guard, and I make sure to bring them back to that guard after I am done punching. My hand can't block as well when it is at the hip or rib.

[joesteph]

As far as the "Hinge point" is concerned this is quite difficult to explain in writing.

As I remember, my comment was as a result of a previous post about "Hiki-te" or the pulling back of the non punching arm. My concern here is that thinking of it this way can make the hips rotate around the spine rather than around the opposite hip. The hinge point or "fulcrum" point should always be the opposite hip to the hand with which you are punching.

Actually, Zanshin, I think this explanation can be seen in the mind's eye. The reader can envision the difference between the opposite hip (like a swinging gate) as opposed to the spine as the fulcrum. I can't say I'm familiar with the term Hiki-te, but a reader can follow the greater power alluded to by using the opposite hip rather than the spine from your body mechanics explanation.

[bushido_man96]

In the end, don't the hips rotate around the spine???

[joesteph]

In the end, don't the hips rotate around the spine???

When I was practicing right crosses (from a hands held high position) to "feel" what Z was referring to--the greater the twist of my body, the greater the extension of my right arm, the lifting of my right foot on the ball of the foot, even the turning of the shoulders--I could feel a tightness in the left hip area, that that was the "fulcrum" Z was describing and what I had envisioned in his explanation.

When I did the right cross with a focus on the spine, Bushido Man, I didn't reach as far, and didn't feel it in the left hip, although I committed less of my body into the punch, allowing me to retract more rapidly if I wanted to, for a follow-up strike.