Punching start point

[tallgeese]

You are correct, I have done a few. Probibly less than most, and I have been at this a while. Even when doing stepping punches early in my career I was taught with my hands at my head, which was the original aspect in question.

It really is a "to each their own" kind of thing and what it is that you are looking to do with your training. Time is often the limiting factor in training. Therefore, I like to make the most of it. Therefore, by cutting out steps that aren't critical to fight application, you effectively increase you time of training. Cutting or modifying them to their most streamlined fashion and practicing the final objective rather than older training steps can do the same thing.

Not that those steps are bad, just that we've advanced training methods in the last several years. It gives us more than one way advance our practice of the arts. Thats all.

[Zanshin]

You are correct, I have done a few. Probibly less than most, and I have been at this a while. Even when doing stepping punches early in my career I was taught with my hands at my head, which was the original aspect in question.

It really is a "to each their own" kind of thing and what it is that you are looking to do with your training. Time is often the limiting factor in training. Therefore, I like to make the most of it. Therefore, by cutting out steps that aren't critical to fight application, you effectively increase you time of training. Cutting or modifying them to their most streamlined fashion and practicing the final objective rather than older training steps can do the same thing.

Not that those steps are bad, just that we've advanced training methods in the last several years. It gives us more than one way advance our practice of the arts. Thats all.

Microwave Ovens - They heat things up! lol

[tallgeese]

Nice

[joesteph]

From tallgeese:

Ideally, from a high guard position with both hands covering the head/face area. Never, intentionally, from anywhere lower than a high coverage position.

From bushido_man96:

In TKD, we start the palm up, tight up under the ribs.

Ideally, I prefer tallgeese's method, from the high guard, like a Boxer.

When I took Tae Kwon Do years ago, it was non-contact every sparring session except for one time, and that was when students from a Kung Fu school visited. That one time, we wore gear and sparred moderate contact.

I'd been sparring on my own with a friend whose background was Isshinryu and contact was first without sparring gear. I'd learned from him one of the simplest self-defense concerns, that your wrist can be grabbed when your hands are up in fighting position, and then you get it in the face or body.

I ran into a problem sparring non-contact, and that was due to the position of the hands of whoever my sparring partner was. Very often, their hands were low, and sometimes they were way out in front, the latter as though defining their space, keeping you away. When I had a sparring partner whose hands were way out, I did what I'd practiced with my friend; I grabbed the forward arm by the wrist and gave him a (non-contact) shot. When we sparred again, his hands were far forward again, and I again grabbed the forward one, pulled him forward, and "struck" again. That's when one of the instructors spoke with me.

In non-contact, the seizing of the wrist is considered contact. He didn't suggest an alternate, such as to slap the hand away, and he explained that if this is permitted, non-contact would become contact by way of pulling and likely pushing. (Although he didn't say it, non-contact was what people had signed up for.) I apologized to my instructor and my sparring partner, but I realized that there was a false sense of security that any student whose hands were placed like my sparring partner's possessed; it didn't even occur to them that where they placed their hands for self-defense could be turned against them.

As I said in my original posting in this thread, since doing some cardio-kickboxing, I now place my hands up close where my face is. Contact or non-contact, they're in the best position for me to defend myself.

[Zanshin]

As I said in my original posting in this thread, since doing some cardio-kickboxing, I now place my hands up close where my face is. Contact or non-contact, they're in the best position for me to defend myself.

Maybe, but we are talking about how to best learn to punch here aren't we? Not how to guard?

Again, punching from a guard position is application, not basics, or at least from a trad karate point of view anyway.

Also, karate is a "non-gloved" martial art that means with blows to the body with pointy fingers etc to small ribs you would probably feel more inclined to lower your guard to protect these regions.

The arms up around the head model, whilst having its place, is a spin off from boxing, which is a sport at the end of the day.

And BTW Kyokushin is NOT a traditional form of karate.

[joesteph]

Maybe, but we are talking about how to best learn to punch here aren't we? Not how to guard?

It works well for both for me, Zanshin.

And BTW Kyokushin is NOT a traditional form of karate.

You must have me confused with someone else. I don't know Kyokushin and haven't commented on it.

[Zanshin]

Maybe, but we are talking about how to best learn to punch here aren't we? Not how to guard?

It works well for both for me, Zanshin.

And BTW Kyokushin is NOT a traditional form of karate.

You must have me confused with someone else. I don't know Kyokushin and haven't commented on it.

Hi joesteph,

Making both guard and punch work for you is correct application however, to get the most out of your punch, you should practice how to do it in its basic format. This way when you launch your punch from your upper guard position you are using the correct body mechanics, not lust the strength of your shoulders and arms.

The Kyokushin thing was not pointed at you (sorry), but was more in anticipation for people that would point out the Kyokushin practitioners fight with a higher guard.

I have nothing but respect for Kyokushin BTW

[tallgeese]

I think either method can be considred "basics". As for throwing a punch correctly, I agree that proper body mechanics is key. I just feel that they can be taught that whith thier hands up.

As for things attacking the body, you can still cover that while the hands are raised. That's what elbows are for in this position, coveing the midsection.

Again, just a variation.

[doug_kissaki]

In my opinion, a punch should be started from a guard up position.

The traditional method of starting a punch from a draw position (whether on your hip or ribs) comes from the idea of pulling the other hand in to that position while the punch is being delivered. And this method of doing the technique is not really correct.

In a fight, hands do one of two things... protect you or harm your opponent. A hand on your hip does neither... unless that hand was pulled in as part of a grab.

Before I start receiving all sorts of "flames" for going against something we've all been taught for years, take a look at an interesting article...

http://www.kissakikai.com/newsletter.php

[joesteph]

In my opinion, a punch should be started from a guard up position. . . .

In a fight, hands do one of two things... protect you or harm your opponent. . . .

[T]ake a look at an interesting article...

http://www.kissakikai.com/newsletter.php

It is an interesting article, Doug, and reflects your observations.

Personally, I've never been fond of getting hit in the head, and as Tallgeese said:

As for things attacking the body, you can still cover that while the hands are raised. That's what elbows are for in this position, covering the midsection.

I believe you can both protect the head and body as well as punch effectively from that hands-up position.

Incidentally, I saw that the article's photos were not only vintage, but that they came from an old 8mm film, not snapshots. Not the usual source.