Punching start point

[bushido_man96]

Maybe, but we are talking about how to best learn to punch here aren't we? Not how to guard?

The arms up around the head model, whilst having its place, is a spin off from boxing, which is a sport at the end of the day.

Boxing may be practiced as a sport today, but at one time, it was a more inclusive form of Martial Art. And never, to my knowledge, in that art were the hands held at the hip or ribs. They were always up to guard. The Boxing guard is still a viable "basic" position, and the body can still generate power in punches from this position.

[Zanshin]

I like Tallgeese's approach to training in basics from the high guard position but I would be cautious as to whether this is jumping over the process (of learning how to correctly generate power in a punch) too quickly.

It isn't really jumping any processes. Like tallgeese mentioned, it is a basic form of training, but just different from the basic training of Karate.

I agree, it is a basic form of training but it is jumping a process from a "traditional karate point of view", thats all I am saying.

If it wasn't, the punch from a high guard position would appear in traditional Karate Katas. To my knowledge there is no kata that incorporates this type of punch.

[Fish]

Just to change the angle a bit, I've recently read a book that suggested that hand palm up just above the hip is better mechanically than and palm up at the armpit or high on the ribs, because the former allows the elbow joint to move correctly behind the punch, whereas the latter position doesn't.

In sparring, I tend to keep my back hand on the hip because we are taught that, to "score" with a gyakuzuki, we have to withdraw the punching hand all the way back after the punch. I use my lead hand more or less as a jab to find my range, or to block the incoming technique of my opponent.

[tallgeese]

Let's not forget that in some ways, boxing is a much more realistic training model at times that traditional sparring. Not in inclusiveness of movments used, but in the context of contact and randomness.

It's a fully resistive opponant who is trying to hit you. And you are doing likewise. It's created a very long running experiment on where the best position for the hands are during a full on fight with the hands-and history and basic physology has shown this to be in some form of a hands up position. Even they train in this manner from day one.

True, I've never seen kata with a high guard. It's not a traditional

[Zanshin]

Let's not forget that in some ways, boxing is a much more realistic training model at times that traditional sparring. Not in inclusiveness of movments used, but in the context of contact and randomness.

It's a fully resistive opponant who is trying to hit you. And you are doing likewise. It's created a very long running experiment on where the best position for the hands are during a full on fight with the hands-and history and basic physology has shown this to be in some form of a hands up position. Even they train in this manner from day one.

True, I've never seen kata with a high guard. It's not a traditional

I agree, but lets also remember that boxing is a sport governed by a set of rules.

Also boxers train to fight in gloves. They condition their bodies so that they can withstand powerful blows to the body (with gloved hands), whilst leaving their arms free to protect their heads, which after all is the most vulnerable part of the body.

I don't disagree with anything you have said, but again I think the OP question was about chambering a fist from a "traditional" karate / TKD perspective, not questioning the wrongs and rights of such systems.

On a boxing side note, I recently saw a documentary featuring Ricky "the hitman" Hatton, during which the researcher got in the ring with Hatton wearing a coaches body armour (you know the type a vest with about six inches of dense foam padding in the front). Despite wearing this, he was only able to withstand 2 or 3 of Hatton's body blows, before dropping to his knees. Scary stuff.

Thing is though, Hatton as a world class professional athlete that trains everyday all day, day in and day out.

Some weeks (due to work) I am lucky if I can train for two hours. Despite this I still think my karate would give me an edge over a would be assailant.

[bushido_man96]

I don't disagree with anything you have said, but again I think the OP question was about chambering a fist from a "traditional" karate / TKD perspective, not questioning the wrongs and rights of such systems.

I checked the OP. Here is his question:

Anyone here have a hard and fast rule about the starting point of ALL their punches?

That being said, I look forward to what folks think is the most efficient starting point, anatomically and physiologically speaking of course.

I don't see any limitations to strictly Oriental Martial Arts styles. Any system, as far as I can tell.

So, including the Boxing standard would fit into the discussion just as well.

[tallgeese]

It' good to check back occassionaly. Thanks bushido man. It's pretty easy to get lost in other discussions when a thread goes a while. Doesn't make the converstaion less valid, it just means that we may not be talking about the same thing anymore.

I do think the hand position in a high guard in relevent to any discussion on striking simply because I don't think that you can realistially talk about striking without talking about defense in some regard. It's all important to the application of the force you're trying to exert.

[Zanshin]

I don't disagree with anything you have said, but again I think the OP question was about chambering a fist from a "traditional" karate / TKD perspective, not questioning the wrongs and rights of such systems.

I checked the OP. Here is his question:

Anyone here have a hard and fast rule about the starting point of ALL their punches?

That being said, I look forward to what folks think is the most efficient starting point, anatomically and physiologically speaking of course.

I don't see any limitations to strictly Oriental Martial Arts styles. Any system, as far as I can tell.

So, including the Boxing standard would fit into the discussion just as well.

Bushi,

You should be politician lol. That's the best piece of constructive editing of a post I have seen.

What gave me the impression that he was referring to a traditional form of karate was:

• Some schools, like Seido, start their punch at chest level: at or nearby the armpit. Anyone practice this way?

• Some, like Shotokan and the Shitoryu sensei I talked with, start all their punches at the hip. Specifically directly above the hip, fist inverted prior to firing. Anyone prefer this practice?

The only schools he refers to are Karate schools. Shotokan and Shito-ryu being traditional schools and Seido being a Kyokushin off shoot (with has its roots in Goju and Shoto).

So I think my original comment is valid , but I guess you are right, we are all looking at the question through our own personal prism.

Z

[bushido_man96]

He did not open the post with restrictions to Karate styles. He mentioned how a few of them do it, but did not restrict the options in the post to the traditional Karate methods, as I see it.

I did not edit the post. I posted the relative questions by the OP.

[northerndragon]

My fault for not getting back to my question sooner. I see now that there are several talking points which have developed.

 

For me personally I appreciated every one of your responses, in terms of keeping an open mind and seeing what my shortcomings could be, in terms of training, "in Karate".

 

But, I do not see any need to exclude boxing, being that it is a fighting/pugilistic sport/art, depending on one's view.

 

As for the initial post on 'Starting Point' for all punches:

 

My naivete that I will put out there was that I thought different lineages of Karate were all traditional irregardless of how they started their punches. I did not know that Kyokushin was not a traditional art of Karate. I learned via this thread that their higher-hands/starting point is not traditional. That being said, I see now that perhaps my question is directly influenced by tradition. And depending on the lineage and one's own preferences, the 'Starting Point' will invariably vary from style to style.

 

I train with the hand starting point initiated at the hip. Reason for my question in the first place:

 

>I tried recently executing my Oi-zuki or Gyaku-zuki from the higher position one day when training at home. It seemed comfortable that day, but I noticed a drastic change in the muscular response the next day: I was very sore!<

 

This marked soreness I suppose is attributed to muscle-memory getting "tweaked" from a different start position, in this case higher.

 

Lastly:

 

I was interested in the notion of Hanmei ( using the 45 degree angle of the hips ) to generate power (twisting motion) into one's punch. Someone mentioned about the ''Hinge Point'' so my follow-up question is: Were you referencing Hanmei? Or the opposing influence that can weaken a punch?

 

This last part is another topic altogether.

 

kind regards,

 

Eric B.