Non contact

[HardampSoft]

I’ve been studying Goju Karate and am currently 8th Kyu.

I’ve been reading a lot of message boards recently about contact during training.

A lot of people say that if it is no contact then you train your body to stop before making contact so its not much use in a real life situation.

I know if you did make proper contact with some of the things we practice then you will probably injure someone pretty badly.

In our dojo we don’t do very much sparring so how do you know if what you practice in the Dojo is going to work in real life.

Your thoughts on this issue would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

[tallgeese]

The bottom line is that you don't. Yeah, it's a bummer, but that's pretty much the case. Now I am not advocating just putting on kempo gloves and whaling on one another with no focus on learning, not at all. In fact, I think a fair amount of controlled contat is needed to learn the basic patterns of movements.

That being said, and perhaps this is done at haigher ranks in your school, there is no subsititute for occassionally armoring up and really putting an attacker into attack mode. Even this is only an approximation of actual combat. Still, it is more indicitive of what it is actually like than only training with limited to no contact levels.

Full contact competition can really help prepare you mentally for a street brawl but even that dosen't compare to the intensity and adriline dump that goes along with rolling around with some idot in the ditch.

The other thing to do is look at the success rate that other students in the school have had if they have indeed been involved in a conflict situation. See how they've done and how prepared they felt.

As for training, make sure that you are doinng enough mit and pad work to really get a feel for making contact and driving through your target. Heavy bag sork can help here as well. While doing sd work, make sure that you set your mind at least to a combat speed. Focus of the feeling associated with generateing enough power to drive completely thru your target. Just don't extend the movement into you partner. Also, and this is a biggie for me, don't assume that any move, and I mean any movement, will work at any give point. If you are practicing a joint postion drill and miss the lock, don't just stop and start over. (Unless of course you are learning it for the first time-this is more of a drill situation) Instead, flow into something else, even it it's only a single strike. Anything to keep you from getting used to relying on one single movment to end aggression.

Just some of my thoughts on your very legitimite concern.

[Tiger1962]

I have mixed opinions on this subject.

I do agree that if you have some light controlled contact during training it prepares you for a real life situation where it is "no holds barred".

However, let's create an imaginary situation where you have a student - young or old who has been training for years with contact. They have a laundry list of injuries due to sports, training in martial arts or whatnot, depending on their extra-curricular activities. If that person trained with contact ALL THE TIME and received injuries in their training, then I believe they would not be successful in defending themselves in a real life situation because of the various weak points in their body. Quick example: you're sparring in class and because of back problems, you can not tolerate sweeps. That is, unless you want to be in traction and out of work for months.

So, as far as contact in class goes, I say: IF the person agrees to it and perhaps LIGHT contact or not as frequent...

Forgive me if I am repeating myself here but how effective is a person in their 30s 40, or 50s who has been allowing contact for years and years in their training and let's say has: back problems, knee problems, ankle problems from all the injuries sustained from the throws or contacts or wrestling or takedowns over the years? All the rough stuff DOES take a toll on your body after years. TRUST me, I know firsthand ! LOL....At the same time, how effective is someone who NEVER has contact?

Another side to it is, depending on the style you are studying, maybe contact is not part of the curriculum. If you are studying a traditional or more "artsy" (for lack of a better word) form of martial arts, then perhaps you are not interested or being trained in a contact-type m.a.

Just 3 different views to consider here.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Tiger1962

[tallgeese]

I see what you're saying. Actually, I've lived it .

I see all those injuries as part of the price you pay for having first hand knowledge that what you're doing works in a high pressure situation. Yeah, it's a steep price. There are days on the mat that I feel like the tape is the only thing holding me in one peice. But, I've seen what I can do when the intensity is high and the adreniline is flowing and things aren't going as planned. It's a trade off.

You can still be effective despite the years of abuse. Adriniline is a wonderful tool . You also tend to get smarter.

On that note, there are plenty of things you can do along the way to minimize those injuries that your paying the piper with. 1) use gear- invest in good armor and use it. 2) know when your body is say that it's time to stop- onemore round always gets you hurt at the end of the night. 3) take time off when injured- don't continue hurting yourself to train- it's a marathon, not a sprint. 4) use ibuprophen wisely- in other words, if your taking 8-12 just to get thru the day, it's time to see the MD not schedule another training time. 5) not everything has to be a contact drill- no really, I mean that. Just not everything should be a no contact drill.

It's a small list, but one that I wish I had been armed with at the onset of my ma career.

Now on the more art-influced classes, I agree totally. If you are, at the outset of your training, more interested in cultual and philospohical concerns than actual fighting, no contact classes should be just fine. And no harm for wanting to study that side of the ma's. It's another avanue one can go down.

However, for wanting to learn to fight, you're going to have to have some amount of contact from time to time.

[kansascityshuffle]

I have experience in goju and shito obtaining black belts in both arts and in all honesty a lot of the ways that you're practicing your kihon won't work in continuous more full contact kumite. However, some of it may as long as you use some common sense on your timing and distance with those techniques. Am I telling you to quit? No, I'm not because you may be having a great time, getting a great work out and so on. I personally love shito and goju ryu for the kata.

[joesteph]

I’ve been reading a lot of message boards recently about contact during training.

A lot of people say that if it is no contact then you train your body to stop before making contact so its not much use in a real life situation.

As someone who studies in a non-contact dojang, I have to admit that this concern is genuine.

We have testing coming up for promotion, either at the end of September or the beginning of October, and my instructor is concerned with getting us ready after the summer months. We've regularly done light--to me, it's just "touch"--contact with self-defense techniques, just not to the face. Last night, when we were being checked by our instructor, all the light contact we've been doing had to be ended, and I realized that when the regional judge comes for our testing, we have to conform--strictly--to the organization's rules.

I noticed the difference immediately, that I was now practicing in such a manner that everything was falling short--be it punch or kick--of the opponent. I really do think that you will act in a real situation as you have trained, and now dojang training will include greater practice in a restricted manner. I'm glad I train at home with strikes against two training bags, a WaveMaster and a BOB, which I will admit is not the same as against a human opponent, but I feel this training is helpful to me, a necessary supplement.

[tori]

My experience in class having little contact concerned me for awhile until I got to participate in a kumite classic where black belts could make contact. What fun!!!!!!!!!!! I had no problem increasing my level of contact on my opponents. It really was a great time and an eye opener for me on how fast I could react to full speed punches and kicks coming in, and how I could give it back. I did well too. The thing that I notice in class that concerns me more is people who do not want to make contact on their partner, so they deliberately kick or punch to the side. I have been adament in telling students to aim at your partner all the time, so that if you ever need to defend yourself, you will hit your target.

[joesteph]

The thing that I notice in class that concerns me more is people who do not want to make contact on their partner, so they deliberately kick or punch to the side.

There was a fellow student who was doing this, Tori, a really nice guy who understood the principle of "strike through the target" for true impact/damage, but who would fire off a punch to the side of your head or a kick to the side of your body. I was doing a self-defense exercise with him, the usual that the punch would come straight to my face and I'm to block and follow up.

Picture a man stepping forward, looking forward, and punching at an angle; he punched right where I moved to instead of throwing the punch to where my face "used to be," as I had moved out of the way. It was a moderate bare-knuckled shot that got me on the jaw (I'm so glad it wasn't my nose), and he was very sorry, but I said to him that he's practiced this so much, he's doing it automatically.

I wasn't even mad, said it was a good shot, and he did as he was supposed to do for the drill from then on: punch/kick at me, not "outer" space.

[ninjanurse]

Interesting...I was just discussing this very subject with my class tonight. We practice "full contact" sparring but....one has to remember that class is the time to pattern ourselves to react "fully" to a threat, not beat the stuffing out of each other. Repetition is the key to performance under stress and it takes time. After adequate repetition one should be able to react under stress properly and the skills obtained in the meantime certainly serve to protect us to some extent-better than if we had never had any martial training at all.

Keep in mind too that focus mitts, bags, and other targets are used in most systems so that students can practice hitting with full force without damaging their training partners.

[bushido_man96]

Tiger1962 has some legitimate concerns, and ones that I think tallgeese covered very well. It doesn't have to be full contact all the time, but you need some conctact some of the time. Different target areas should be explored from the sparring standpoints from time to time as well.