Art or Sport

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Shoto Tiger: Yeah, Shotokan has sort of been watered down for the public, but its roots, Naha-te and To-te, were lethal. In my opinion, a martial art made to kill with one strike is not exactly ideal sport material.

 

Hiya: I agree that tournaments can help gauge ability and imporvement, but there are two problems with most tournament circuits these days:

 

1) Too expensive: they charge too much to enter, charge special fees, make you become a member, make you buy their special equipment to participate, and generally suck every dollar out of you.

 

2) Unrealistic: they have so many ridiculous regulations and safety rules that it's no longer anything like a real fight. From such a tournament, you learn nothing.

 

These types of circuits are commercialized, and in it purely for the money. If you can find a good, traditional tournament, we're glad for you, have fun. But most of these tournaments are a disgrace to martial arts.

 

 

[Shoto Tiger]

Shoto Tiger: Yeah, Shotokan has sort of been watered down for the public, but its roots, Naha-te and To-te, were lethal. In my opinion, a martial art made to kill with one strike is not exactly ideal sport material.

 

I understand, but are we talking about competing today or competing before it was brought from Okinawa?

 

Besides, we have inter Org. competitions. No one has died yet? Rules and levels of control are allowed and I thought this mystery of "to kill with one strike" can be applicable to all martial arts?

 

 

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All martial arts can, but most aren't made to. As long as you have control and all, yeah, I suppose it makes a good sport, but the way it's done today is bordering on pathetic. Who needs 5 refs? What would Funakoshi think of all these pads, gloves, and no-contact rules?

 

I just don't think they do it right anymore. Shotokan is not a polite, gentle martial art. If you're gonna enter a tournament, it should be moderate contact, you should leave with at least some bruises, and you should get roughed up and hurt. That's part of Karate, taking a beating and returning the favor. The truth is, not all martial arts are for everyone. An 80-year old woman wouldn't fare too well in Muay Thai, nor would a midget do well in White Crane. And unless you're built solid, tough, and mentally prepared to get hurt a lot, I think you should be in an art other than Karate.

 

 

[ckdstudent]

From the way you put it it sounds like karate is an art for violent masochists. That's really gonna help the art spread and gain new students. Its also going to be really useful when it comes to the insurance issue.

 

 

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That's just the thing. Karate is not a peaceful pasttime. In my opinion, most people should not be in Karate. Most would be better off in Aikido, Jujutsu, or a related art, because Karate is harsh. For tougher people, it's good excercise. Not necessarily violent or masochist, but rough along the lines of football or boxing. If you aren't much of a football player or boxer, there are other arts that will make better use of your physique than Karate.

 

And as for the insurance issue, it's ridiculous. We are living in a country where a criminal can sue a cop for 'excessive force' if the cop punches him while trying to capture or restrain him. In Karate, you need to take a beating to condition yourself. If you take lots of punches and kicks in training, you will know how to brace yourself and be ready in real life. If you take none in training, you will go down in a real fight after one or two strikes. This is a factor that I believe is seriously lacking from many modern Karate schools.

 

 

[ckdstudent]

Unfortunately we do live in that type of culture, and we've got to live with it and adapt.

 

As for the statement that you need to take punches and kicks in training or you'll go down in real life I'd have to argue although this may just be because I'm naturally tough (although I doubt it). I had never taken a severe punch in my life, and the first time I did was some guy in a park who wanted my wallet, so he hit me with a chain wrapped round his fist as hard as he could. I was still upright and barely even dazed, able to finish the fight with little difficulty before continuing on my way home.

 

I also have friends who were in similar situations (without the chain) and yet none of them went down. My sister (tiny little girl, don't know why anyone attacked her as they did and I would quite calmly break every single bone in their body one at a time if I ever find them) took a backfist around the head once at school and didn't suffer for it at all, except for a bruise on her cheek.

 

As I said, maybe me, my family, and my friends and the people I train with are all exceptionally tough, but somehow I doubt it. The simple fact is that in a real fight most people have no idea how to put real power behind a technique, that takes training, and most of the time once you're trained you're less willing to get into a fight, or at least that's the idea.

 

 

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I dunno about y'all, but around here in Houston, most people know how to fight some way or another, be it boxing, martial arts, or whatever.

 

The point I'm trying to get across is that different martial arts are for different people. A lot of people can get by okay on Karate, but there are other martial arts that would be better for them. Karate is not for everyone, that is a simple fact.

 

 

[ad]

this topic bothers me as many martial art school restrict students from participating in competitions. The mainly art based and traditionally based schools very rarely have competitions or enter the students into them. The main competitons are really focused from sport tkd and sport karate, whos intention is to teach how to fight competition style. Traditional schools who teach hardcore grappling, pressure points, low kicks, feel that competitions are a waster of time due to there many restrictions

 

 

[Shoto Tiger]

On 2002-06-23 17:38, -: wrote:

 

All martial arts can, but most aren't made to. As long as you have control and all, yeah, I suppose it makes a good sport, but the way it's done today is bordering on pathetic. Who needs 5 refs? What would Funakoshi think of all these pads, gloves, and no-contact rules?

 

#

 

Yes. Good point.

 

I just don't think they do it right anymore. Shotokan is not a polite, gentle martial art. If you're gonna enter a tournament, it should be moderate contact, you should leave with at least some bruises, and you should get roughed up and hurt. That's part of Karate, taking a beating and returning the favor. The truth is, not all martial arts are for everyone. An 80-year old woman wouldn't fare too well in Muay Thai, nor would a midget do well in White Crane. And unless you're built solid, tough, and mentally prepared to get hurt a lot, I think you should be in an art other than Karate.

 

#

 

I am 28 years old, 5 foot 5 inchs and weigh 9.5 stone. I am still reasonably effeminate - not built like a tank, yet I have competed. I am concerned that you are generalising a little too much. Karate is not just violence, its spiritual and mental too. Maybe I have just been lucky, but I'd like to think I have some skill too.

 

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Yes, I did generalize a bit too much. Let m rephrase: Karate, in general, is a rough martial art, in which you can expect to get hurt at least a little. Although th individual disciplines vary greatly, all Karate shares the theme of solid, physical power-based fighting. I didn't mean to imply that there is not a mental/spiritual aspect. In fact, I believe this to be the most important part of Karate. I just believe that many people would find other arts more appropriate for their physique. Not everyone can afford to wear out their knees standing in low stances, or toughen their shins, forearms, and knuckles.