Doing a side kick the "right" way

[joesteph]

When I perform a side kick, I have a tendency to raise the kicking leg in such a manner that there is a resemblance to the roundhouse kick. I can explain better by dividing the leg into upper and lower. The upper leg is raised to a good height, say waist level, but the lower leg is not hanging straight down; it's at a downward angle (think 45 degrees down to visualize it). When I execute the kick, everything else is as a side kick is expected to be.

My instructor, and I should include her teacher who taught my class last night, refer to what I would call a stricter placement of that lower leg, that it hangs straight down before firing off the side kick. I do not protest, but I believe that both can be correct, so long as the kick itself doesn't turn into a roundhouse.

I can't quite imagine what you're doing - so much depends on whether you're leg's hanging down at 45 degrees before or after a rotation of the supporting foot and/or hips, whether it's pointing sideways or forwards . . .

The Soo Bahk Do side kick is really a side snap kick ("yup podo cha gi," with "podo" emphasizing "snap"), Tony, so I'm to turn my body so that my supporting leg moves over 90 degrees, the chamber is with the kicking leg in front of me, like a front kick (lower leg vertical) but tucked against me, and when I fire off the kick, the supporting leg's heel is 170-180 degrees to the target. Another forums member described her art's side kick as having the chamber with the lower leg practically horizontal, like being able to place a plate on it, and her reference to it in her art was as a thrust kick.

I perform the side snap kick as my teacher expects, with the lower leg horizontal, but it's more natural for me that when I pivot to chamber, my supporting leg has its heel past 90 degrees, my kicking leg has its heel turned as far as the supporting leg's heel, and the lower leg is midway between the horizontal and vertical positions--so I call it 45 degrees. When I fire off the kick this way, the supporting leg has its heel 170-180 degrees turned. I don't expect the art or my teacher's requirements to change for me, but despite the practice I put in with the "official" side (snap) kick, if I'm sparring, it doesn't flow w/o taking that bit of extra time for the hanging lower leg to pop into level postion, telegraphing itself, and it's less likely for me to hit that 170-180 degrees turn of the supporting leg's heel. I just wind up not using it.

4 minutes long, an instructor:

His supporting foot and hip movement is that I recommend for a side piercing kick: both rotating during the extension of the kicking leg.

Actually, Tony, what's natural for me is a lot like he's doing with his kicking leg, but all-too-often during the presentation, his supporting leg's heel doesn't reach 170-180 degrees. Perhaps he was so concerned about teaching the chamber and fire that he didn't realize it.

I'm not sure if . . . you like pivoting a bit more in anticipation of the kick to come . . .

I'd say this is what I prefer. The side snap kick seems "halting," not as flowing, to me.

BTW, my instructor is young, just 25, but often we teach others as we ourselves were taught.

Interesting point. More true in traditional schools, precisely because they do break the technique down into small steps and expect everyone to do them the same way. . . .

If your school is internally consistent - even between your instructor and her's - then it suggests higher standards than average. Requiring someone to learn the textbook form is generally a good idea, as different technique can have consequences . . . And, if you learn the technique as suggested, then revert to you're own form afterwards, it will mean a lot more for having come from an informed perspective.

Sometimes my teacher's own instructor teaches us, usually when my teacher isn't able to make class that night. You can tell that the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

[tonydee]

I'm still not doing a great job following this. If you have a video camera of some kind, a five second clip would be immeasurably useful. (BTW, you may be able to upload directly from webcam to some sites like twitvid.io, then paste a link here, which makes it pretty easy with minimum hardware and software requirements.)

The Soo Bahk Do side kick is really a side snap kick ("yup podo cha gi," with "podo" emphasizing "snap")

My understanding of what most martial artists call a side snap kick: you might move into this position from another stance, but the kicking action begins with a line through both hips facing towards the target, and the knee extended towards the target, while the kicking foot is kept near the supporting knee or groin, instep rotated skywards, then the kicking knee remains relatively still while the kicking leg pivots around it to extend. I haven't tried to document this kick in my posts on this forum... it's very different indeed and I rarely practice or use it.

If this is anything like what you're actually doing, then maybe trying to relate it to the other kicks I documented is a square peg round hole trick....

I'm to turn my body so that my supporting leg moves over 90 degrees, the chamber is with the kicking leg in front of me, like a front kick (lower leg vertical) but tucked against me, and when I fire off the kick, the supporting leg's heel is 170-180 degrees to the target.

Italicised the points I'm considering most below....

It is (just?) possible to move through a front-kick chambering position into the side snap kick documented above, so I can't discount it yet, but it feels very contrived to me - a bit like the hooking kick thread describing execution from a front stance (which I do do by the way, but then that's due to the strategic utility and I don't see any in this preparation of side kick). Took me a while to realise "pointing 170-180 degrees to the target" is ambiguous, I thought it simply must be wrong, but I assume you mean it's rotated 170-180 degrees from the starting position, and is no "to"=towards the target, rather than being at "170-180 degrees to line from itself to the target", which would still be facing away from the target.

Another forums member described her art's side kick as having the chamber with the lower leg practically horizontal, like being able to place a plate on it, and her reference to it in her art was as a thrust kick.

Using this for comparison, is the position you describe like "step 3" with the supporting foot already turned 90 degrees? And her's like step 5? Both could be stages in what I'm calling a thrusting kick. And the 45 degree thing you've mentioned wanting to do a few times, is that like step 4? The crucial element to effectiveness in the thrusting kick is the relaxed "bounce" to get the hips moving back and forward and engage more muscle groups, but the general stages you've described sound like it could be a thrusting kick, waiting for you to get the feel for that subtle extra aspect.

Not saying you are, but generally it's important not to be confused by someone telling you to snap a kick out or back, thinking that means the kick must be a "snap" kick in a classification sense. Even a thrusting kick can be delivered in a fashion that has - in the general English sense of the word - lots of snap in that the leg can thrust out and be pulled back very quickly, i.e. "snappishly".

I perform the side snap kick as my teacher expects, with the lower leg horizontal, but it's more natural for me that when I pivot to chamber, my supporting leg has its heel past 90 degrees, my kicking leg has its heel turned as far as the supporting leg's heel, and the lower leg is midway between the horizontal and vertical positions--so I call it 45 degrees. When I fire off the kick this way, the supporting leg has its heel 170-180 degrees turned. I don't expect the art or my teacher's requirements to change for me, but despite the practice I put in with the "official" side (snap) kick, if I'm sparring, it doesn't flow w/o taking that bit of extra time for the hanging lower leg to pop into level postion, telegraphing itself, and it's less likely for me to hit that 170-180 degrees turn of the supporting leg's heel. I just wind up not using it.

If I've followed you at all - which I think unlikely - then the highlighted horizontal above would be a typo, and you meant vertical, as you did talk about a front-kick like vertical chamber above? At the point where you're chambered, would the target be able to see your back, chest, or only the shoulder? I assume from what you say about the heels being parallel and the supporting foot having rotated past ninety degrees that your back is at least partially visible to the target... which seems to mesh with thusting kick step 4 in the photos above.

Just wondering, could it be that you're lifting your leg using the muscles on the "outside" of the hip? That would be slow and frustrating. If you lean back a bit more while kicking, and use the hips to raise the leg, does the kick feel more natural? You could try that with a stepping motion, a bit like

and see if it helps, though it then takes a lot of practice to perfect getting the same feeling and speed from a back leg kick.

Actually, Tony, what's natural for me is a lot like he's doing with his kicking leg, but all-too-often during the presentation, his supporting leg's heel doesn't reach 170-180 degrees. Perhaps he was so concerned about teaching the chamber and fire that he didn't realize it.

Yes - that video bothered me for the same reason. Leaving the foot unrotated (ala piercing kick) while trying to get that kind of line on the leg extension (ala thrusting kick) is just mixing things that don't combine well.

despite the practice I put in with the "official" side (snap) kick, if I'm sparring, it doesn't flow w/o taking that bit of extra time for the hanging lower leg to pop into level postion, telegraphing itself, and it's less likely for me to hit that 170-180 degrees turn of the supporting leg's heel. I just wind up not using it.

Could be good to tell her it's feeling awkward, and ask her to have a look and offer a tip or two, or some different exercises to target whatever is wrong....

Cheers,

Tony

[joesteph]

The Soo Bahk Do side kick is really a side snap kick ("yup podo cha gi," with "podo" emphasizing "snap")

My understanding of what most martial artists call a side snap kick: you might move into this position from another stance, but the kicking action begins with a line through both hips facing towards the target, and the knee extended towards the target, while the kicking foot is kept near the supporting knee or groin, instep rotated skywards, then the kicking knee remains relatively still while the kicking leg pivots around it to extend. I haven't tried to document this kick in my posts on this forum... it's very different indeed and I rarely practice or use it.

I'd say you've got it right, Tony. I should have linked to photos in Tang Soo Do World at:

http://www.tangsoodoworld.com/reference/reference_techniques_side_kick.htm

This is shown "with step," but we do both with and without for the side snap kick.

Another forums member described her art's side kick as having the chamber with the lower leg practically horizontal, like being able to place a plate on it, and her reference to it in her art was as a thrust kick.

Using this for comparison . . .

I'd say that this is what she was describing, but I don't have as skilled a motion, so my lower leg is at 45 degrees rather than so horizontal that it's like a plate could be placed on it.

I perform the side snap kick as my teacher expects, with the lower leg horizontal . . .

If I've followed you at all . . . then the highlighted horizontal above would be a typo, and you meant vertical . . .

Yes! It is a typo. I did mean vertical.

Just wondering, could it be that you're lifting your leg using the muscles on the "outside" of the hip? That would be slow and frustrating.

Which is why I don't use it while sparring, and it just doesn't feel as natural if I'm not taking a step. The step, as in the photos I linked to, above, and the video you linked to (

) that show it in motion are a help, but a step takes time and telegraphs, and to do the side snap kick from a non-stepping position still takes time (and telegraphs) as well. I wind up doing front kicks and roundhouses when sparring, but no side kicks as the opponent just moves during that set-up time. Offhand, I can think of only one student who uses it, and from a non-stepping stance, but his speed may be the result of his experience/practice with different martial arts for a number of years.

Could be good to tell [your teacher] it's feeling awkward, and ask her to have a look and offer a tip or two, or some different exercises to target whatever is wrong....

Actually, Tony, she's worked with me and others at getting it done in the approved manner, and as she's a certified instructor, I can understand that it's her responsibility that we do the kick this way. She seems satisfied with how I perform the kick, but suggests to all of us that, whatever she teaches us, we need to practice not only inside but outside the dojang. Much of my practice outside the school is with forms, since time is budgeted when you're a parent. I won't say she isn't right that everyone needs to practice, practice, practice to become proficient, but I do feel that, for this kick, the way that feels natural--and is faster--is right for me, so long as I'm on-target with delivery.

What I'm now intending to do during the coming months is to return to practicing both the side snap kick and my 45 degrees one, but I have to do the latter at home. If I spar and use my version, maybe nothing will be said so long as I do the approved one when required.

[tonydee]

Hi Joe,

That Tang Soo Do World link really shows me what they're aiming at, thanks. Definitely not either of the kicks I was documenting, and while the leg isn't ever tucked towards the supporting knee or groin as in some traditional karate systems, and the kicking knee is more to the side than forwards, I'd hazard that it's still fair to put it into the side snap kick category, as the forwards lower-leg rotation that swings it up towards the target is done as late as possible in the kicking action.

The TSDW link reminded me of these videos: first second. This guy does seem to angle the foot rather than have it hanging vertically at the side - I assume that's what you're saying you also like to do. The "advanced version" described in the former seems very close to TSDW's illustrations, while the second suggests a covering jab that might make it easier to use in sparring.

Regarding use in sparring.... A side kicks isn't ideal as an opening move against a waiting opponent. Rather, practice any stepping versions you know until you're very comfortable with it, then just consider using the kick when you happen to be performing the same set-up step during sparring. That way, it won't be a case of trying to make that kick work in an arbitrary and largely incompatible situations, but "oh, I'm taking this familar setup step and I could easily throw a side kick - would it be useful?". As usual when stepping, feed out front-hand attack or feints to cover, sometimes feint or vary the timing and size of the steps themselves. Practice combinations like jab, stepping front kick, and stepping side kick. In sparring, if the opponent has retreated from the front kick fast enough without actively trying to remain ready to counter, then they won't be ready to suddenly stop their backwards motion and change direction or make a really solid foundation for blocking, so a stepping side kick should be safe: even if they see it coming they should still have to do considerable work to avoid/block it and someone around your own grade shouldn't find it so easy that they consistently manage an effective counter-attack too. Similarly, if an opponent is rushing towards you too fast to stop easily, meeting them with a front leg or stepping side kick can work well.

(I feel use in sparring is easier with a thrusting hip mechanics, the movement can easily be changed into a hooking kick, after the threat of the side kick has forced the guard down to protect the ribs.)

This video demonstrates slow/friendly sparring, and a few things you may find useful:

- using footwork and hand techniques to set up kicks

- using front and inward crescent kicks to set up side and hooking kicks

- delaying the kick just long enough to see which height's not protected

- using the threat of side thrusting kick to set up a hooking kick

- grasping block of knee-height side kick (rare), and

- distancing and attacking purposefully to score a useful hit in almost each attack sequence

Things will be a little different with your side snap kick variant, but could be food for thought.

Regards,

Tony

[joesteph]

That Tang Soo Do World link really shows me what they're aiming at, thanks. Definitely not either of the kicks I was documenting . . .

The TSDW link reminded me of these videos: first second. This guy does seem to angle the foot rather than have it hanging vertically at the side - I assume that's what you're saying you also like to do. The "advanced version" described in the former seems very close to TSDW's illustrations, while the second suggests a covering jab that might make it easier to use in sparring.

I'm glad the Tang Soo Do World photos made the side "snap" kick clearer, Tony. It looks like we've been discussing three kicks: snap, piercing, and thrust. And the YouTube videos were more on the mark of what's natural for me.

This video demonstrates slow/friendly sparring, and a few things you may find useful . . .

I did like this video, and the three videos together concentrated much more on the lead leg side kick. We've been using the lead leg only for one-step sparring techniques, which means against (w/o striking, of course) a partner; the back leg side kick has been the one practiced against a kick shield. The sparring suggestions can help get the side kick in instead of bypassing it b/c of distance or telegraphing.

Yesterday, I began working both the snap and 45 degrees side kicks against the WaveMaster I have at home, both with the back leg. The latter was much smoother for me, and much faster. Putting a "hop" or "skip" (I've even heard it referred to as a "shuffle") into the rear leg to help the front leg along is something I've done now-and-then. It couldn't hurt to do it more regularly with the new side kicks practice.

Thanks, Tony. I've bookmarked the still photos and the videos you linked to. They're a good reference.

[david123]

to be honest if you want the karate one which has been transformed over hundreds of years to make it a vicious attack, proberly one of the most powerful kicks

1. from closed parallel stance head turned to the side(where your kicking) knees slightly bent.,

2.lift right knee, bringing right foot to the side of the supporting knee.

3. extend leg out to the side

[Jay]

I do mine like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5XdkXfvudk

[joesteph]

I do mine like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5XdkXfvudk

I began practicing this side kick against my home WaveMaster just as I was starting at the new dojo, readying myself for contact sparring. I like that it incorporates performing the kick as though there were a step, and driving a bit of bodyweight/momentum into it for added power.

I found a Bruce Lee demo clip, Lee performing the side kick the same as Ted Wong in Jay's link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9Ru6ON8qzc&feature=related

But I noticed it says Jun Fan JKD on Jay's clip. I understand that Lee did experiment, and this way of doing the kick was practiced by me during the time I took JKD. The presenter isn't a JKD practitioner:

It may have just been how to perform a JKD side kick with the rear leg instead of only relying on the lead.

[joesteph]

I remembered this post and wanted to return to it because of a short article in October's Black Belt magazine, "First Lesson: The Side Kick," on p. 19.

Beginners often giggle when they first learn this version of the side kick because of the term that's used to describe the striking surface: the blade of the foot. . . .

 

[T]he impact cuts into the target, which can range from the shin and knee all the way up to the head.

On each page of this thread, I don't think anyone referred to the striking surface as other than the heel. I thought that using the blade was done at a past time, but that the heel was superior and replaced it; also that the chance of self-injury went up with the blade side kick.

Does anyone use the blade instead of, or as well as, the heel?

[Kuma]

I think Sanda has some great side kicks. I've been working on side kicking this way and it's been working out well.

http://www.myvideo.ge/?video_id=358994