Doing a side kick the "right" way

[tallgeese]

This is why I don't use Japaneese terms .

Each school probibilby has their own specific take on what each means anyway. It's easier to use descriptive english to denote each. For example, a thrust side kick. Then you just teach it to everyone they way you perform it, or give the options for a striking surface between the heel and blade of the foot.

I know that the inside wrist lock we use, a koteagieshi (sp?) is performed slighly different in our system than many joint art to a minor variation simply becasue of our emphasis on striking while working joint position. That probibly means it's not auctually that lock. Oh, well.

Terms can often get people tied up, as can the minute details of movements. If it's a good solid striking surface put to a target at the end of a solid movement and it does damage, it should be "right".

[Wa-No-Michi]

I think you are right tallgeese,

As an instructor teaching ma if you don’t understand the true meaning of the terms you are using, they lack purpose - so you are better off using English.

If however you purport to be an instructor of tradition Japanese Karate, you are missing a beat if you don’t understand a therefore utilise Japanese for it descriptive qualities and cadence values.

This is maybe for another thread, but I honestly feel that Karatekas who are schooled in a dojo where Japanese terminology is used (and explained) correctly stand a better chance of being better at what they are attempting to do.

Sorry if this sounds a little harsh, but often "Americans" are viewed as a little insular, by the rest of the world (I m not saying that you should tar every American with the same brush), but the freedom to experience other cultures through language and approach using platforms like Karate has value with great depth imo.

Not going to make any difference to who wins the next "rage in the cage" fight, but Karate’s more than that isn't it?

Each to their own of course.

WNM

[Wa-No-Michi]

This is why I don't use Japaneese terms . I know that the inside wrist lock we use, a koteagieshi (sp?)....

See, classic point in question...

I think you are looking for Kotegaeshi

Kote = Wrist

Gaeshi = fold, bend back, return.

This is not a lock.

Kotegatame is a wrist lock.

Kote= Wrist

Gatame = Lock / pin.

The first will simply (but effectively if done well) "encourage" your opponent to go in the direction you want them to (floor probably), the latter will inflict pain as it is a mechanical lock / pin.

Maybe stick to English tg.

WNM

[bushido_man96]

Generally speaking, in karate, side kicks or kicks that emanate from the side of your body are classified as “Yoko” geri from the Japanese meaning “side” or “beside”. This is to do with the relationship of you hips with the target – and there is no pre-ordained part of the foot you should or should not be striking with as far as I understand it. The foot position can in be in a vertical or horizontal plane.

Also both Maegeri (frontward kick) and Yoko geri can be performed as a jab “Keage” or thrust “Kekomi”

Confusion often arises when people use terms like “Sokuto” (which is the edge of the foot) as a “side kick” or reference to the type of kick and its intended directionality.

Techniques in karate often get their name from the directionality of the technique in relation to the performer, not his oponent. So if you kick someone who is beside you with a meageri style kick (in terms of foot position) it is a Yoko geri, unless you turn your hips to face your oponent prior to releasing the kick. This is then a maegeri.

WNM

I guess if that is the way it is done in Karate, then I can understand what you are saying. However, in any of the material I have read, I haven't noticed these discrepancies in the capacity that you explain them here.

From what I have seen in my TKD practices, the technique classifications are more specific. Side kick is done with the foot horizontal, parallel to or pointing slightly down toward the floor. Front kicks are with the knee held vertically, and lower leg down below. However, the tool used can be the heel, the instep, or the ball of the foot.

As for whether using the language of the mother country that an art comes from, and whether or not it enriches your time there, is for each to decide.

There are lots of practitioners out there that claim that the language is an essential part of learning the art, and that it gets one more in tune with the culture it comes from, etc. I don't really buy into it, because you are only learning a very small part of a much larger language, and a much larger culture than is offered from attending a Martial Arts class two to three times a week, for maybe two hours at a time.

[tallgeese]

No worries, Michi, no plans to ditch english anytime soon .

[Wa-No-Michi]

I guess if that is the way it is done in Karate, then I can understand what you are saying. However, in any of the material I have read, I haven't noticed these discrepancies in the capacity that you explain them here.

It's the way it is in all Japanese ma (not just Karate) and chances are it is not detailed in the material you are reading because it is not pertinent to the technique they are explaining.

From what I have seen in my TKD practices, the technique classifications are more specific. Side kick is done with the foot horizontal, parallel to or pointing slightly down toward the floor. Front kicks are with the knee held vertically, and lower leg down below. However, the tool used can be the heel, the instep, or the ball of the foot.

I think my point is that one shouldn't be bound by a particular "classification". I am not suggesting that the way your school teaches the kick you are describing is not good, or correct for that matter, but the OP's question was "what is the correct way to perform side kick". I knew what he/she was alluding to, but the whole thread has rung a bell with me because you, (bushi, joe, tg) seem to have to have a rather "fixed” idea of what a side kick / kick to the side is, and therefore always performed. That doesn’t sit too well on my karate register.

In my world of functionality, I would like to think that I can use every part of my body in anyway biomechanically possible as a weapon. Yoko geri in front kick foot position that I describe may not fall into the "kihon" of the typical western karate school, but it is there in the kata and kumite elements of most decent styles I can assure you.

As for whether using the language of the mother country that an art comes from, and whether or not it enriches your time there, is for each to decide.

There are lots of practitioners out there that claim that the language is an essential part of learning the art, and that it gets one more in tune with the culture it comes from, etc. I don't really buy into it, because you are only learning a very small part of a much larger language, and a much larger culture than is offered from attending a Martial Arts class two to three times a week, for maybe two hours at a time.

Well, I guess if all you are after is training to achieve a basic ability to kick and punch you are absolutely right. If however you really want to try to understand what makes the specific system of ma you train in truly function, what it’s “MO” is, then you are better served trying to understand the reasoning behind the theory.

The theory is often derived from historical/cultural reference points and so therefore an understanding of the language(in terms applicable to ma/karate), its construction, its origins and therefore its meaning, will give you a distinct advantage if you are trying to understand the true depths of an art imo.

Brian, as a fellow medieval combat enthusiast, I bet you know and understand what a “Mordstreich” is, and I bet it conjures up some great visions in your head.

Or is this just me being a bit weird .

WNM

[joesteph]

I think my point is that one shouldn't be bound by a particular "classification". I am not suggesting that the way your school teaches the kick you are describing is not good, or correct for that matter, but the OP's question was "what is the correct way to perform side kick". I knew what he/she was alluding to, but the whole thread has rung a bell with me because you, (bushi, joe, tg) seem to have to have a rather "fixed” idea of what a side kick / kick to the side is, and therefore always performed. That doesn’t sit too well on my karate register.

Michi, when we perform the kick in which the kneecap is up/horizontal, and hit with the ball of the foot, we call it a front kick, no matter if straight ahead, at 45 degrees, or to the side. When we do what we call a side kick, there are two specific ways of doing it (thrust, snap), and so it isn't confused with what we call the front kick.

It's not semantics or a fixed idea; it's that we have these kicks that are executed differently, and it's necessary to give each of them a name to tell one from the other.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I think my point is that one shouldn't be bound by a particular "classification". I am not suggesting that the way your school teaches the kick you are describing is not good, or correct for that matter, but the OP's question was "what is the correct way to perform side kick". I knew what he/she was alluding to, but the whole thread has rung a bell with me because you, (bushi, joe, tg) seem to have to have a rather "fixed” idea of what a side kick / kick to the side is, and therefore always performed. That doesn’t sit too well on my karate register.

Michi, when we perform the kick in which the kneecap is up/horizontal, and hit with the ball of the foot, we call it a front kick, no matter if straight ahead, at 45 degrees, or to the side. When we do what we call a side kick, there are two specific ways of doing it (thrust, snap), and so it isn't confused with what we call the front kick.

It's not semantics or a fixed idea; it's that we have these kicks that are executed differently, and it's necessary to give each of them a name to tell one from the other.

Joe...mate, that's the point.

"You" may call it a front kick if the knee cap is upermost even if the kick is performed to the side, but the rest of the karate world call any kick performed to the side... a side kick!!

WNM

[tallgeese]

I agree that the "why" aspect of ma's shold be more important that the simple memeorization of "how", I've written on training in prinicple based methods often.

I just don't feel that the country of origin should effect those that much. Principles should be dictated by physiology and the tactical application of tools to destroy the other guys.

But, again, that's coming from a totally sd standpoint, where I place little emphsis on cultural aspects of where things came from. For someone wishing to persue that side of an art, it should be highly important. However, choosing to disregard that side of things shouldn't impact the understanding of why things work or how they should be put into context.

I will say, that I do try to keep track of the lineages that lead up to me and what those practitioners have gone thru, thus paying respect in that fashion. I don't think that the past should be forgotten, just that is shouldn't drive where you're going in the arts or why.

[JusticeZero]

*nods* I classify by mechanics as well; it leads to having similarly named techniques that look very different because the structure is the same. I do not see it as useful to classify by target choice or the like; I want techniques filed by mechanics, as that's the important part in making it work, not where you're aiming the technique as that's much more ephemeral and ultimately unimportant.