Worn/Frayed Black Belts

[tweak9]

I was just reading an old post from March 2003. I did not like the responses about wornout Black Belts...it bothered me that people would insist on replacing a worn belt before it breaks. I think in old school ways. A frayed belt is an honorable thing. Hanshi Del Saito is 8th Dan (SHito-Ryu) and his belt is so worn it is almost white. What an accomplishment! I am so awed by him and have had a couple classes with him. He is a humble man wearing a humble belt...

All the money in the world would not make me buy a new belt. Unless it snapped from wear...I would like to keep my first BB until I cannot train anymore. Even if I someday achieve Renshi, I do not want to wear a flashy new BB with all the embroidered kanji. Just a humble BB is good enough for me.

I would never let my belt hit the ground as well. It is dishonorable (IMHO). Accepting that kids shed their belts when they train is way disrespectful. And washing it, forbidden...I feel that your spirit would be washed away.

Any opinions welcome...no bashing please.

Just ranting,

Osu!

Pete

Shodan-Ho Oct 4, 2008

[Tiger1962]

I agree with most of what you said. This is one of the reasons why I became very angry when I found out that a classmate of mine borrowed my belt without my knowing, when I wasn't in class one day. Now I don't leave it in the dressing room anymore. This is also why I believe in people having their names embroidered on their belt, regardless of rank but especially from black belt and up. A person would have to be pretty dumb to borrow someone else's belt with a name on it that isn't theirs.

[tweak9]

I agree with most of what you said. This is one of the reasons why I became very angry when I found out that a classmate of mine borrowed my belt without my knowing, when I wasn't in class one day. Now I don't leave it in the dressing room anymore. This is also why I believe in people having their names embroidered on their belt, regardless of rank but especially from black belt and up. A person would have to be pretty dumb to borrow someone else's belt with a name on it that isn't theirs.

So true. You earned that belt. Regardless of name on it, YOU earned it and if the person that borrowed it has 1 minute less training, I still believe it to be dishonorable. I think he/she steals your spirit. They should be offered to borrow the belt not ask if they can borrow it. If you gave a friend a belt as a gift of recognition is another story. You are sharing your spirit with him/her.

I always keep my belt near me or at home.

btw, my sensei was sizing belts for our black belt ceremony and she said to use her belt that was hanging in her office. I asked if she was sure. She said yes. She offered it to borrow momentarily. It was a rush to wear a 4th degree belt when I am just about to receive my Shodan-Ho. (i'm 44 and it was quite a feeling. I probably sound like a kid here...)

pete

[tenshinka]

C'mon folks...Its a piece of cloth...Its a new innovation in martial arts...Since the 1900's

The most important thing is that you train, and enjoy doing it. The belt cannot and does not hold your knowledge, and experience. Only YOU can do that.

[tweak9]

C'mon folks...Its a piece of cloth...Its a new innovation in martial arts...Since the 1900's

The most important thing is that you train, and enjoy doing it. The belt cannot and does not hold your knowledge, and experience. Only YOU can do that.

Hmmm, you are correct about training and enjoying your training. It physically does not hold your knowledge and it is a piece of cloth. I was talking symbolicly(sp?) on a more esoteric (hope I used the right word) level.

With all due respect to our military forces, does a sargeant's stripes mean nothing or is it just a piece of cloth too? Isn't he she worthy of the rank they earned?

p

[tallgeese]

Still a piece of cloth. And equating military rank with ma rank is a bit flawed. Military sturcture exsist to maintain external dicipline. Ma rank merely reflects self-dicipline.

There's nothing wrong with respecing your belt and each school will differ a bit on how it's treated. I'd say act in accordance with your schools tradition. Because really that's about all the tradition truely associated with it. It is a relitively new invention.

I don't wear mine much. I'd rather trian in shorts and a t. But, as I mentioned in another thread, I still keep it in my go bag for training. There is a symbolisim attached to it for sure. I just don't know that it rates the reverence some ascribe to it.

[shujika]

“With all due respect to our military forces, does a sergeant's stripes mean nothing or is it just a piece of cloth too?”

I have to agree with tall geese. because actually, it is “just a piece of cloth” (to designate rank/authority. To a non-officer) unlike a “blackbelts”, which (theoretically) displays knowledge (which is all a belt represents) not ability. A military “rank” can be “stripped” from the individual wearing it. A belt is just a convenient way to display rank to those unfamiliar to the individuals present at the time. The (implied) knowledge should be evident in a short period to any individual present. In my opinion, the belts should be cleaned periodically (they get “Rank” LOL and “Nasty”). If you feel all your “knowledge” will somehow be “lost” from cleaning a belt, I think you have “issues” LOL. The “frayed” look, really comes down to the quality of the belt. I've had several that had the “frayed” look after only a few months, and some that have looked great for 6 or more years. If your really into it, a lot of individuals abuse and repeatedly wash the belt to attain that “worn” look (because it makes them look .....”old & knowledgeable” ? ). I actually rarely wear one, unless doing a seminar or at an association event (and even then, any belt which defines a “rank” ie. “stripes” or such, is rarely displayed).

[tenshinka]

Still a piece of cloth. And equating military rank with ma rank is a bit flawed. Military sturcture exsist to maintain external dicipline. Ma rank merely reflects self-dicipline.

GREAT Response.

My problem with the whole "belt" thing, is not the mere symbolizing (thats all well and good), but rather all the talk and hang up over a physical representation of something almost entirely intrinsic.

From another side of the fence (keeping in line with respecting the belt and such), I know of a particular instructor, who would patch his belt when it would become frayed or white would begin to show through, out of respect.

Question: In Aikido, Hakama pants are not worn until Dan level. When a knee gets a hole worn in it from constant use, do you continue to wear the hakama, and let them fray until you are left with "holy shorts" or do you patch/replace them?

Edit: Another Great Post Shujika...

[tweak9]

"If you feel all your “knowledge” will somehow be “lost” from cleaning a belt, I think you have “issues” LOL."

I do have issues but i take meds for that...LOL...

My knowledge is in my head of course (along with the voices)...I am just reflecting old school theory...great discussion though...

Who buys cheap belts? You get what you pay for...

Reverence not implied by belt/rank...just respect...

Ummm, some black belts last a loooong time...and they turn white again. Could that be a "full circle" thing, reminding us we are always students?

Lastly...do you care if your belt hits the floor? I do. I have to be knocked down or out to let it happen (no ego here, just my beliefs)..

Maybe I read too much...LOL

pete

[tenshinka]

I am just reflecting old school theory...

Ummm, some black belts last a loooong time...and they turn white again. Could that be a "full circle" thing, reminding us we are always students?

Lastly...do you care if your belt hits the floor? I do. I have to be knocked down or out to let it happen (no ego here, just my beliefs)..

Maybe I read too much...LOL

pete

Hi tweak9,

No offense intended, but I think that alot of the "old school" theory you mention, is more of an "innovation" that has taken place since the arts introduction to the west. I mean, the belt system itself did not come along until Dr. Kano decided to found Judo, and copy the belting system from synchronized swimming ;-D

Dont get me wrong, I DO respect my belt. Just as I DO respect my uniform, and the clothes I wear everyday. I would not drag my obi on the ground, no more than I would my other articles of clothing...But if my belt touches the floor I'm not gonna have a fit lol (I guess its goes back to the whole "cloth" thing).

Actually, the way I was taught (by my Korean TSD instructor) to fold my uniform, was on the ground, and lastly you lay your belt folded in half on the ground, and put your uniform on top of it, then tie the belt around the uniform.

In April I was in FL for a seminar, and a Kuk Sool/Hapkido Grandmaster (with almost 60 years of training) taught a "rope seminar" in which we ALL used our belts to perform rope techniques, and yes, they touch the floor during that type of practice...