Empty your Cup...

[bushido_man96]

Just adding my 2 cents after reading the above posts..

I agree with everyone who said that to be a Martial Art a style has to relate in some way to combat or aspects of combat.

However I try not to get too hung up on the idea that Martial Art necessarily equates self defense. Combat yes but not specifically SD. IMO a school does not have to teach SD or methods appropriate to modern combat to still be a Martial Arts school. If they are passing down and preserving these arts that were once used martially, then, in my opinion, they are still MA schools. As long as they don't claim to teach self defense when they really don't, I see nothing wrong with placing a school / style under the MA umbrella even if they aren't really that combat effective anymore.

It sounds to like you might take sword arts as an example. I think that you are right here. Its hard to argue the practicality of using sword combat today, unless you can actually carry a sword now and then.

[DWx]

Just adding my 2 cents after reading the above posts..

I agree with everyone who said that to be a Martial Art a style has to relate in some way to combat or aspects of combat.

However I try not to get too hung up on the idea that Martial Art necessarily equates self defense. Combat yes but not specifically SD. IMO a school does not have to teach SD or methods appropriate to modern combat to still be a Martial Arts school. If they are passing down and preserving these arts that were once used martially, then, in my opinion, they are still MA schools. As long as they don't claim to teach self defense when they really don't, I see nothing wrong with placing a school / style under the MA umbrella even if they aren't really that combat effective anymore.

It sounds to like you might take sword arts as an example. I think that you are right here. Its hard to argue the practicality of using sword combat today, unless you can actually carry a sword now and then.

Most weapon styles are a good example. How often do you get to carry around a 6ft spear or a bow and arrows? I'm sure with all weapons styles there are possibilities for empty hand techniques or of finding a something like a stick for SD but to be honest, if SD is what you are looking for, you'd be better off finding an empty hand style or a style with weapons you could feasibly carry. But IMO, they are still Martial Arts styles.

The other thing is, what if a style was originally created for the battlefield? Something that takes into account armour, weaponary, whole armies instead of individuals etc. might not translate that well to SD.

[theshredder157]

i first heard about it in "zen in the martial arts"

and i think its all about not having previous moves come through when you try a new style or martial art all together

but it could probally be brought into everyday life as well

[Wa-No-Michi]

It sounds to like you might take sword arts as an example. I think that you are right here. Its hard to argue the practicality of using sword combat today, unless you can actually carry a sword now and then

Well yes, like I said:

As I mentioned in a previous post I am a bit of a "nipponophile", and I like to read books on art arts like Kyudo (archery), and Iaido (sword drawing).

Both obviously have martial origins, but from a self defence point of view they are seemingly useless. (Unless of course you carry round your bows, arrows and shinkens at all times).

A Shinken is a sword with a live blade. Sorry if i didn't make that clear.

I think this thread of conversation came about due to comment on Akido and self defence.

The following was written on the Q&A section of the Rowan Aikido Club based here in the UK. https://www.computerswopshop.co.uk/rowan/faq.html

I think this sums up what we are talking about...

"Can Aikido be used for self-defence?

 

We do not teach Aikido as a self-defence form - it's a martial-art - please do not confuse the two, despite what you've seen in the movies. Although Aikido is not a self-defence form in itself, we believe that, by teaching Aikido in the way we do, following a set of basic principles, the precepts of self-defence are embodied in the practice. We teach good posture, keeping the head up to be aware of other attackers, moving off the line of an attack rather than fighting etc."

Naturally opinions will differ from club to club, but it is sort of on my wavelength of thinking.

[tallgeese]

I'm not sure if I posted this elsewhere, but that's a mission statement that's so convoluted I can barely follow it.

[Wa-No-Michi]

I'm not sure if I posted this elsewhere, but that's a mission statement that's so convoluted I can barely follow it.

Really?

What's not to understand?

Aikido in this group is not taught / promoted as a self defence system.

But, the study of it will engender good skills that will naturally improve your ability to protect yourself.

Its more of a useful bye product however, rather than the primary reason to study it.

[Kajukenbopr]

Sorry for them, but Aikido can be taught as self defense IF you practice practical applications. In my school, I've taken Aikido concepts and applied them to the techniques we have.

If you keep training to fight a swordsman, you might do well if u ever find him, however, it wont help much against punches and kicks....

But isnt this going way off topic??

[joesteph]

i first heard about it in "zen in the martial arts"

and i think its all about not having previous moves come through when you try a new style or martial art all together

but it could probally be brought into everyday life as well (emphasis added)

What you've mentioned in the book I've found to be a tough thing to do, Shredder, though it's the right thing to do in the new martial art. It's funny how something from twenty years ago can pop right back into play. In psychology, a main point of study is conditioning, and how it's important to elicit a certain response. We assume that if something is no longer called for, the response eventually goes "extinct" in the person. But does it?

For example: It can be years later, you've decided to try martial arts again, and you're taught that you're to turn your hand horizontally with each punch, as is your art (mine is Soo Bahk Do), which you do correctly when going slow and starting out, and then when the pace picks up, especially in sparring, you find yourself reverting to an Isshinryu vertical fist, punch-after-punch, which you studied decades ago; it came right back. I've got myself down to a 45 degrees fist when extended, even though in the hyungs the punches I do are full turn.

This is why my instructor is so concerned about establishing good habits now, before they become ingrained and you're a higher belt who now has to deal with an inner demon--you're sloppy, it's a bad habit, and it's a struggle to undo.

It's challenging (school teachers use that term for the tests they give, avoiding admitting the test is hard ) to replace old with new; you really have to "empty your cup" to do that.

Edited October 13, 2008 by joesteph

[joesteph]

i first heard about it in "zen in the martial arts"

and i think its all about not having previous moves come through when you try a new style or martial art all together

but it could probally be brought into everyday life as well (emphasis added)

Shredder, your observation made me think of a real-life event.

You're in high school and the fire alarm goes off; just another fire drill which will get you out of class for a few minutes. No panic, just go the designated route "in case" there's a fire, and we know there never is one. Sometimes the firefighters block an exit path to make the students remember that there can be a real fire, and that they have to use an alternate route. Ho-hum. But one day you're outside where the fire drill puts you, and it's taking forever before you're let back in the building; unknown to you, there was an actual fire in the school building, in the kitchen in the cafeteria.

Conditioning regarding fires can save lives. Conditioning regarding martial arts might mean you're unafraid of an adversary, are in fighting stance, kiai or ki-hap as fist, foot, or both make contact, and either you drive your assailant away, or you secure an escape. After it's over, then you realize your heart's racing and your breathing is heavy; it's then you think . . .

[bushido_man96]

I'm not sure if I posted this elsewhere, but that's a mission statement that's so convoluted I can barely follow it.

Really?

What's not to understand?

Aikido in this group is not taught / promoted as a self defence system.

But, the study of it will engender good skills that will naturally improve your ability to protect yourself.

Its more of a useful bye product however, rather than the primary reason to study it.

I don't think that this makes it right, though. I think of Aikido as a self-defense art. I feel that someone who claims to teach a Martial Art in the way that the mission statement you posted states, then they are using a misguided definition of the term Martial Arts. I practice Aikido also, but with a self-defense attitude and mindset. I have even made cross overs from the Aikido class into my Defensive Tactics training. I think it is the way that Martial Arts are designed to be.