Side Kick Question

[bushido_man96]

I think that foot position does have an effect on hip placement in most kicks, and in most kickers. Of course, like tufrthanu said, everyone's body is different. Even though, some foot position is probably the right position for getting the hips into place.

The actions of the base foot should both preserve the knee of the base leg, and get the hips into proper position.

[sensei8]

I've no right to say anything in this forum because I'm not a practitioner of any Korean martial art. Yes, I did take 1 year of TKD while I was in high school, while I was already a Jr. Black Belt in Shindokan, but, that still gives me no right to speak about any TKD methodology.

Having said that, please allow me to comment on the side kick in general terms as I've been trained in it through Shindokan, an Okinawan Karate style, for the past 45 years.

Pivot:

Pivoting of the supporting foots heel should raise only as minimum as possible to avoid the appearance of any sine wave. Path from point 'A' to point 'B' should be as natural and as quick as possible, therefore, the sine wave should be practically invisible. Shindokan teaches us that excessive sine wave robs the power curve across the board.

Supporting foot:

The supporting foot should fully rotate away from the kick. Meaning this. At the completion of the side kick the supporting foot is pointing 180 degrees opposite of the kick. Illustrated by this... as crude as it is...

kicking foot= <---- ---> =supporting foot

Shindokan teaches us that this amount of 180 degrees away fully opens the hips much more than 135 degrees as practiced by many other martial art styles. If there's a physical reason that one can't fully rotate into the full 180 degrees, then of course, adjustments must be made to the side kick so that that student can develop power appreciatively. Reaching the power curve at the side kicks most extended/apex position is critical and must be achieved simultaneously; hence the full 180 degree away of the supporting foot.

Knee of the Supporting Leg:

The knee plays a vital role in the entire side kick. One, the knee of the supporting leg is the shock absorber. As contact is made, the knee helps to absorb the opposite and equal reaction of and as the kicking foot reaches the target.

The knee of the supporting leg being slightly bent is optimum in the entire side kick whether it's for absorption and/or for relationally moving inward and outward of and to the opponent.

A straightened knee of the supporting leg is dangerous to the practitioner because of the added possibility of it [knee of the supporting foot] being hyperextended and/or resulting in dameage to any knee cartilage, muscles, ligaments, and/or tendons. Also, the straightened knee of the supporting foot is at a much higher risk of bone truama [breakage] if and when the opponent decides to sweep the supporting foot.

This is just as basic as I can present the Shindokan methodology on the side kick, but, these things that I've posted here are important to every martial artist in every martial art, imho, because...after all...most every martial art has a side kick in its syllabus and/or the practitioner of the martial arts has chosen the side kick as one of their weapons.

Everything in the side kick should start and end at the same time!

Hopefully this post might help! Hopefully, I've not caused any vexing amoungst my fellow martial artists, especially the practitoners of any Korean martial art because that's the furthest thing from my mind. My intent with this post was to bridge the differences between the different styles of the martial arts, in what I consider a very basic kick; the side kick.

If I've offended, please forgive me for my carelessness!

Edited November 2, 2009 by sensei8

[joesteph]

It looks correct and concise to me, Bob. I'd say someone with knowledge of the side kick could envision what you've described, even the "Everything in the side kick should start and end at the same time!" comment that you made.

I didn't know you were adept at illustrations using the keyboard . . . (kicking foot= <---- ---> =supporting foot).

[tufrthanu]

Well to both bushido and sensei all I can say is that the hips are the important part of the side kick and many other important techniques. Far more important than the base foot. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand except that perhaps it's been focused on incorrectly by martial artists for so long. The hips are important. The base foot only ends up at 180 degrees because that's where it needs to be to get the hips in the proper position. Otherwise it's completely irrelevant. As I have said before body physiologies differ and this is what can affect the final position of the base foot. At no point however should the final position of the foot be used as a judge on whether a proper side kick has been effected. Figure out where your hips need to be and then turn your base leg the appropriate amount to get them there. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter which version of a side kick you do. Try it. It works.

[sensei8]

Well to both bushido and sensei all I can say is that the hips are the important part of the side kick and many other important techniques. Far more important than the base foot. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand except that perhaps it's been focused on incorrectly by martial artists for so long. The hips are important. The base foot only ends up at 180 degrees because that's where it needs to be to get the hips in the proper position. Otherwise it's completely irrelevant. As I have said before body physiologies differ and this is what can affect the final position of the base foot. At no point however should the final position of the foot be used as a judge on whether a proper side kick has been effected. Figure out where your hips need to be and then turn your base leg the appropriate amount to get them there. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter which version of a side kick you do. Try it. It works.

This is your opinion and in that you have every right to question and/or doubt other styles/practitioners methodologies and the like! Hips are everything and the hips are for everything! No hips; no power! My supporting foot goes where I tell it to go, whether it's 135 degrees or 180 degrees, but, I tell my supporting foot to turn the full 180 degrees because of my styles methodologies and these methodologies of Shindokan are valid and per our Soke/Dai-Soke, these methodologies are without contestation because they work and this is all that should matter to me.

I've tried for 45 years to disprove EVERYTHING/ANYTHING that my Soke/Dai-Soke have given to us who practice Shindokan the way Soke intended. But guess what? I've not disproved everything/anything YET! Again, it works for us/me that are in Shindokan. Now, when I find something that I don't like and/or I disagree with, then I don't and won't do it. This is my choice! That's not saying that I've proved anything on contrary to what my Soke/Dai-Soke have taught and instilled in us/me. No, it just means that I won't and don't want to do/teach something for whatever reason(s) I've chosen. This angered my Soke and it still angers my Dai-Soke, but, they're fine with it because I've earned the right along time ago to question everything, and I do, because it's my right as a martial artist.

My last post was to just offer another viewpoint from outside of the standard TKD methodology circle and not to say that Shindokan's way is the right way and/or the only way because it's not; no style's is!

If a straightened knee works for whomever, then go for it. If it doesn't matter where the supporting foot is at anytime of the side kick, then go for it. If anything that I offered in my last post is against whomevers methodology, I apologise because that wasn't my intent at all; just to point out another styles advice. Take it or leave it is the right of the practitioner and this includes me.

My way isn't wrong and my way isn't right! Other styles' way isn't wrong and other styles' way isn't right! It's what we have and it works for us, therefore, we do it and we do it well!

Again, forgive me because I was just offering a different viewpoint for discussional purposes only! My respect to everyone here at KF!

[tufrthanu]

It doesn't have anything to do with teaching methodologies (TKD, Karate, Whatever). It has to do with human anatomy. It's not my opinion that your hips determine where your foot is. It's biology. To try and teach hip position through foot position is not good and why many beginning martial artists get pain when kicking.

[joesteph]

It's not my opinion that your hips determine where your foot is. It's biology. To try and teach hip position through foot position is not good and why many beginning martial artists get pain when kicking.

Since the foot is the base of the supporting leg, and that leg will determine hip placement (if it's wrong, all built on it is wrong), doesn't it all trace back to the "root"? Students have to know where they want the hip to be; they're introduced how to get it into place by proper placement of that which supports and therefore permits.

There has to be a beginner's approach. The idea of foot placement, even if it's as basic as to turn your foot first and then concentrate on the hip, is valid. I see the combo of everything in motion, starting correctly all at once and ending correctly (Bob's "Everything in the side kick should start and end at the same time!" comment) at the intermediate-advanced level, not the beginner's.

[bushido_man96]

It's not my opinion that your hips determine where your foot is. It's biology. To try and teach hip position through foot position is not good and why many beginning martial artists get pain when kicking.

Since the foot is the base of the supporting leg, and that leg will determine hip placement (if it's wrong, all built on it is wrong), doesn't it all trace back to the "root"? Students have to know where they want the hip to be; they're introduced how to get it into place by proper placement of that which supports and therefore permits.

There has to be a beginner's approach. The idea of foot placement, even if it's as basic as to turn your foot first and then concentrate on the hip, is valid. I see the combo of everything in motion, starting correctly all at once and ending correctly (Bob's "Everything in the side kick should start and end at the same time!" comment) at the intermediate-advanced level, not the beginner's.

I agree with Joe's post here. I don't think that the base foot becomes the main focus, but it is just as important in the whole of the side kick because the base foot and the hips tend to be linked. I know that if I don't pivot my foot, then I can't get good hip placement.

Now, I think that most MA instructors will go down the path of teaching the foot placement first because in the majority of students, it will get the hips into the proper position for the side kick. Now, if an instructor does find a student whose body works a bit differently, then he has to recognize that, and work with the student in a different way.

A straightened knee of the supporting leg is dangerous to the practitioner because of the added possibility of it [knee of the supporting foot] being hyperextended and/or resulting in dameage to any knee cartilage, muscles, ligaments, and/or tendons. Also, the straightened knee of the supporting foot is at a much higher risk of bone truama [breakage] if and when the opponent decides to sweep the supporting foot.

Bob, I liked your post explaining your side kick methods in Shindokan....and I can't help but wonder about your locked base-leg comments....you probably saw my FB picture in your head, over and over, didn't you???

[sensei8]

Bob, I liked your post explaining your side kick methods in Shindokan....and I can't help but wonder about your locked base-leg comments....you probably saw my FB picture in your head, over and over, didn't you???

Yes, I saw the picture. But, it's not the reason I brought it up. It's [the supporting knee] what I've seen forever!

[RichardZ]

When performing the side kick, should the foot of supporting leg always point away from the direction of the kick? My instructor said that the foot of supporting leg should be perpendicular to the direction of the kick. When kicking like this, I experience pain in my hip joint. However, if I point it opposite of the direction of the kick, I'm perfectly fine.

My questions is: which form of the side kick is correct w/regards to foot placement? I will talk to my instructor about this.

Thanks!

Perhaps you are not allowing your body to naturally applied the mechanics of it or you deviate slighlty.

Does this happen when kicking with either leg?