Side Kick Question

[joesteph]

If you check out the December issue of Black Belt, there's an article by Dr. Mark Cheng starting on p. 68, "Back to Basics." The subtitle is "3 Karate Kicks and How to Fine-Tune Them."

The third of these is the side kick, in which you chamber like a roundhouse to deceive your opponent, then turn your body and have the lower leg of the kicking leg hang straight down, and finally fire off the kick. In Soo Bahk Do, that "second chamber" is the standard chamber for the side snap kick (Yup Podo Cha Gi in Korean; Yoko Geri in Japanese), as shown in photos 3 and 4 at: http://www.tangsoodoworld.com/reference/reference_techniques_side_kick.htm

The photos of the Black Belt sequence are on p. 72. The column on that page that focuses on the Side Kick also has a trick in it. Perform a roundhouse to get your opponent to move, but then step down (as I interpret it) instead of retracting the kicking leg, so that you can perform a stepping side kick.

It's a good article for someone who wants to pick up a slick trick or two.

[sensei8]

When performing the side kick, should the foot of supporting leg always point away from the direction of the kick? My instructor said that the foot of supporting leg should be perpendicular to the direction of the kick. When kicking like this, I experience pain in my hip joint. However, if I point it opposite of the direction of the kick, I'm perfectly fine.

My questions is: which form of the side kick is correct w/regards to foot placement? I will talk to my instructor about this.

Thanks!

At the risk of already repeating someone's similar response to these questions, I'd like to comment.

Whether we're of differing methodologies isn't that important for me to offer my comments. Even though this point shouldn't be totally ignored, but, set it aside for now. Yes, follow the instructions of your instructor because he/she is just that...your instructor.

Yes! The supporting foot should be pointing away from the kick 180 degrees. Reason(s)? Hips are allowed to open/roll AND the knee of the supporting leg is in a more safer/secure position AND the apex of the power curve is achieved.

I'm of the shared opinion of many of my fellow practitioners of the martial arts, that if the supporting foot is perpendicular to the kick several negative things occur. For one, the power curve is stalled/arrested because the hips are closed. Number two, the hips aren't/can't roll due to the perpendicular attitude of the supporting foot to the kicking foot. Thirdly, it might hurt in the hip area, as it does with you, because your body is trying to do one thing, kick, while your trying to do something else that's out of concert in order to complete the kick itself. I'm also of the shared opinion that if one's having the supporting foot perpendicular to the kicking foot affects the balance. Affected balance robs the power curve and affects the effectiveness of the kick. Why? Because of the perpendicular supporting foot isn't providing proper footing. In this, when the foot contacts the target, the supporting knee can't properly absorb the kick. It's the old saying: To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, a supporting knee that's found in a finished/completed perpendicular position to/from the kick is in risk of injuries from undue pressure that's being applied to the knee area.

In closing, heed to the instructions of your instructor BUT listen to what your body is telling you. Don't subject yourself to unnecessary risks of injuries. If your body is screaming for you to STOP and to NOT continue in this manner, then, LISTEN TO WHAT YOUR BODY IS TRYING TO TELL YOU; STOP!

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for the advise, Bob. It does help.

The way do the kick is crescent kick into that hand, then flow into the side kick, without setting the foot down between kicks. We do this kick in blue belt one-steps as well (not that I like them there, but we do them...).

Anywho, doing the one big motion is a good way to practice, so long as I don't build so much momentum as to fall over.

I did a few just now, and found a few things to help...

1. From the sitting stance (or horse stance, if you prefer), if I pivot the leading base leg for the kick by turning the foot more into a back stance position, it allows me to bring the crescent around easier.

2. Holding the hand steady, and really slapping and driving through the hand helps a bit.

3. From there, I am chambered for the side kick, with the base leg not pivoted yet; I then thrust/pierce (??) the side kick out, and pivot the base foot at the same time to open the hips up for power.

I'll continue to work on this, and see how it comes together. Maybe I can put a video of it together, and get it up sometime, if I can stand the embarassment....

I'm also interested to hear of this progression is anything close to what Tony does, and if the side kick sounds like thrusting or piercing.

[tufrthanu]

You can do both round and side kicks with the base foot perpendicular or facing away from the opponent. The difference is in how your hips are positioned. If you try to mix the two you will get pain in your hips. Also, hip position is commonly ignored, incorrectly, when teaching most of these kicks. If you are someone whose legs are not perfectly straight you may have to adjust where your foot is. For instance, one of my legs twists on the way down so one foot points slightly more outward while at rest than the other. This means in a fully rotated round or side kick the foot is actually pointing 200 degrees or so away from the opponent. The upshot is the hips are what are important not the foot.

[sensei8]

The upshot is the hips are what are important not the foot.

Yes, I do agree with this with only one exception or addition. The supporting foot position is ALSO important in order for the hips to fully/completely roll over. In Shindokan, we're taught from day one to rotate the supporting foot a FULL 180 degrees away/opposite, for example, of the side/roundhouse kick for the reason that I stated above. This is just our way and in that, our way works for us but it might not work for others.

[tufrthanu]

Well Sensei you proved my point. The hips need to roll over...or however they need to be for your particular style...the hips will determine where your foot points. That's why I said I think most teachers place the focus on the wrong thing. The placement of the foot is not as important as the placement of the hips even though the foot usually pivots prior to the hips. For instance, lets say I were to do the kick your way. I get my hips in proper position but because of some physiological issue I cannot turn my foot the full 180 or, on the other hand, has to turn past 180 as is the case with one of my legs. My hips are in the proper position but my foot is not at 180. This means that the hips are the more relevant metric rather than the foot. Now you can always say MOST people end up at 180 or 90 depending on the style..but hips and results may vary and so you should do what achieves the effect (hips turned into the kick) and feels comfortable. I think this is why so many people complain of pain in the hips when kicking. Sure you could have bad hips...but more likely your just not positioned right, and it doesn't take a lot either way to get pain.

[joesteph]

For instance . . . I get my hips in proper position but because of some physiological issue I cannot turn my foot the full 180 or, on the other hand, has to turn past 180 as is the case with one of my legs. My hips are in the proper position but my foot is not at 180. This means that the hips are the more relevant metric rather than the foot. . . .

I was thinking of the foot turning as being important to preserve the knee. There's a lot of torque on the knee if the foot isn't turned to about 180, which may mean no hip pain, but the knee joint can become injured bit by bit.

I think this is why so many people complain of pain in the hips when kicking. Sure you could have bad hips...but more likely your just not positioned right, and it doesn't take a lot either way to get pain.

I think a lot of people try to kick high with their hips and legs in what I call a "wishbone" position; they haven't turned their hips enough, especially if it's a side kick, and that leverage puts harsh pressure on the neck of the femur, where it fits into the hip socket.

I wonder if these pains, in the knee and in the hip, don't occur not only because of poor form, but also because the person is trying to do it all so fast that poor form is just the logical result--and so the pain that goes with it.

[tufrthanu]

I was thinking of the foot turning as being important to preserve the knee. There's a lot of torque on the knee if the foot isn't turned to about 180, which may mean no hip pain, but the knee joint can become injured bit by bit.

Well certainly the knee must be preserved but I was strictly speaking to the foot position bearing on the hip position. I'm not saying do or don't turn the foot out when you turn your hips I'm saying whatever that final position of the hips is that is where the leg will have to be positioned to comfortably support it. Whatever leg position that takes. In this case I am assuming that the person has the ability to keep their upper and lower legs in line.

I think a lot of people try to kick high with their hips and legs in what I call a "wishbone" position; they haven't turned their hips enough, especially if it's a side kick, and that leverage puts harsh pressure on the neck of the femur, where it fits into the hip socket.

Yes, if you try to raise your legs straight to the side the trocanters on the outside of the upper femur will hit the pelvis and you will get a lot of pain. That is of course unless you lean around, e.g. basically doing a side split while standing.

[sensei8]

tufrthanu,

I see that we're not of the same methodology and this is fine. My post was to only offer an alternative/other-side-of-the-fence suggestions based on my styles methodology.

It's all good!

Edited November 1, 2009 by sensei8

[tonydee]

I think a lot of people try to kick high with their hips and legs in what I call a "wishbone" position; they haven't turned their hips enough, especially if it's a side kick, and that leverage puts harsh pressure on the neck of the femur, where it fits into the hip socket.

Your "wishbone" term is very apt indeed! A bizarre way to deliver a side kick.

I wonder if these pains, in the knee and in the hip, don't occur not only because of poor form, but also because the person is trying to do it all so fast that poor form is just the logical result--and so the pain that goes with it.

With good technique there's no significant twisting stress on the knees - in the side thrusting or piercing varieties. Further, you can kick a lot faster if your technique is good. People rush it and end up with bad technique and injuries because they either haven't been told/shown what to do, or don't have the patience to learn it. It only takes minimal flexibility and strength to side kick powerfully at chest height, and head high isn't that much of a stretch either , so there's really little excuse for poor form.

Regards,

Tony