Side Kick Question

[bushido_man96]

Well, I'm having trouble following. Pictures truly are worth a thousand words, especially now, I feel...

I'll have to see if I can find any clips that might give some clues to look at. I appreciate you trying to explain it, though.

Seriously. I think we should try to video ourselves doing the different sidekicks we're talking about. All the text can be difficult to get through, and youtube can be a pain haha.

I may be able to get something done on my end. Perhaps I can get the wife to help me out with it. My daughter is also pretty swift with all that uploading stuff, so she might be able to help, too.

[bushido_man96]

PIERCING KICK

Note in the slow practice version of the piercing kick the kicking leg is brought up dramatically to the side of the body. The hips are not rotated until the leg is extending, and the foot turns as they close and jam in behind the kick. This was the motion I likened to a turning/roundhouse kick, as the foot reaches the target in an arc, with the hips and upper body weight engaged to generate the twisting motion stabbing the kicking foot through the target.

Before class tonight, I warmed up a bit with some basic techniques, and worked on these two side kicks a little bit.

I think I may be seeing some of what you are saying on the piercing kick with that kind of leg swing into the chamber position. Bringing the leg up from the outside is wierd, but as I bring it around, and then swivel my hips and pivot my foot into the chambering position before the kick, it seems like some things are coming together a bit. We'll see how it goes.

[sensei8]

In TKD, how does a practitioner avoid having the chamber take so long?

My style of Karate, Shindokan, is taught that jamming a kick at its chambering is most ideal because of how long it takes a practitioner to leave the chambered position. This is when I usually jam a TKD stylist, at the chamber, for that very reason. As a matter of fact, it's not just the TKD stylist that's guilty of this.

[tonydee]

I think I may be seeing some of what you are saying on the piercing kick with that kind of leg swing into the chamber position. Bringing the leg up from the outside is wierd, but as I bring it around, and then swivel my hips and pivot my foot into the chambering position before the kick, it seems like some things are coming together a bit. We'll see how it goes.

Great... be interested to hear how it progresses.

In TKD, how does a practitioner avoid having the chamber take so long?

My style of Karate, Shindokan, is taught that jamming a kick at its chambering is most ideal because of how long it takes a practitioner to leave the chambered position. This is when I usually jam a TKD stylist, at the chamber, for that very reason. As a matter of fact, it's not just the TKD stylist that's guilty of this.

Good point... jamming a side kick is often a good defense, and can set up counter-attacking opportunities or directly trip the kicker. Exactly that is seen against an intended gliding side kick here, with the trap executed so early it might not be obvious to all that a side kick was even planned, but the commitment of bodyweight carried and twisted the attacker into the defender's grasp.

The defender will generally be successful if they're reading the kicker well and maintaining their balance and guard. Consequently, for a side kick or any other technique, the attacker should be wary of attacking if they haven't already seen or created a weakness through feints, footwork, angles, combinations etc.. More so if the defender is more capable generally, as you may well be compared to the TKD people you've tried it on.

Jamming - like any defense from within or the edge of striking range - requires some commitment and risk, and a savvy attacker who reads the coming jamming attempt may switch to another attacking strategy of their own. There are really too many possibilities to mention, but for example:

- either redirecting the side kick before it's jammed, or "bouncing" it back from the jam, to use it for a downward pick onto the jamming leg, a spinning hooking kick etc....

- stepping the leg that was going to kick down and immediately delivering a front kick or turning kick with the other leg to the groin, supporting leg, floating rib etc....

- playing a waiting game, not actually bringing the kicking leg through until the defender extends the jamming kick, then attacking the defender's stability by kicking or stomping on that leg.

- employing a backwards movement of the supporting leg so the pivot and chambering is delivered unexpectedly outside the jamming kick's range, then skipping in using the supporting leg during the kick.

It very quickly opens up into the whole shades-of-commitment positional-advantage predictability-vs-suprise telegraphing-vs-not who'll-trick-who-how mess that is fighting itself....

Cheers,

Tony

[joesteph]

My style of Karate, Shindokan, is taught that jamming a kick at its chambering is most ideal because of how long it takes a practitioner to leave the chambered position.

Good point... jamming a side kick is often a good defense, and can set up counter-attacking opportunities or directly trip the kicker. Exactly that is seen against an intended gliding side kick here . . .

Jamming - like any defense from within or the edge of striking range - requires some commitment and risk . . .

Bob, Tony, what do you think of using your body, as in where it's positioned so close that the side kick gets jammed at about where it's chambered? I did this by accident (I was infighting) a couple of months ago against a fellow student's side kick. There are photos in the August 1999 issue of Black Belt in which this is seen in the top photo. The caveat is the second photo, if your opponent is onto you.

[tonydee]

Bob, Tony, what do you think of using your body, as in where it's positioned so close that the side kick gets jammed at about where it's chambered? I did this by accident (I was infighting) a couple of months ago against a fellow student's side kick. There are photos in the August 1999 issue of Black Belt in which this is seen in the top photo. The caveat is the second photo, if your opponent is onto you.

Sometimes you can see in the moment that wearing an attack - albeit diminished for being outside its focal depth - is the best option available, but it's a dangerous thing to actually plan to do as there's a small margin for error, and as always if the opponent is onto you they may have a nasty surprise waiting.

As illustrated in the article you linked, it's really a race: if the punching counter-attack can be completed while the kick is still being drawn back prepatory to the thrust, then it's pretty safe. If the kicker already has the leg coming forwards, they can lean back a little and complete a useful kick before the punch arrives: hook-kick the front inner thigh or ribs, side-kick/stomp the front inside knee, kick up to the neck or face - each changing the angle so the kick has more room to develop good power; or, if the thrust is delivered better to begin with, there's ample room to strike the floating rib decisively...

The article goes on to explain that it's safe to jam a side thrusting kick because it's only powered by the thigh/quadriceps, whereas the back kick is likely to clean you up because it employs the buttocks/glutes as well. As I've been saying, a side thrusting kick should use the glutes too, bouncing across the body until it reconnects to the motion of a back/spinning-side/front-leg-gliding-side kick. When delivered as I've recommended, you can deliver good power to a surprisingly close target - anywhere from ~50cm in front of the supporting heel - as well as reaching out at long distance. In the article, the opponent is about a metre forward of the kicker's supporting heel, but the hips are not in a position I associate with a thrusting action. The kicker should have been able to drop into a position similar to that illustrated for a back kick.

Cheers,

Tony

[bushido_man96]

In TKD, how does a practitioner avoid having the chamber take so long?

My style of Karate, Shindokan, is taught that jamming a kick at its chambering is most ideal because of how long it takes a practitioner to leave the chambered position. This is when I usually jam a TKD stylist, at the chamber, for that very reason. As a matter of fact, it's not just the TKD stylist that's guilty of this.

I think what it comes down to is effective practice methods, and then utilizing proper set ups in sparring; using the right tool for the job, at the right time. On that, I'll have to admit, I am hardly an expert.

Tony:

Now that we've been discussing a lot about our back leg side kicks (thrusting, piercing, etc), how/what do you utilize for a front leg side kick? Not a stepping together/cross-over front leg side kick, utilizing a momentum building step first, but a front leg side kick without a step? Would you use a front leg piercing kick motion? Again, this would feel odd to me, but I haven't practiced it a lot, either. I am interested to hear your take, and everyone else's here, too.

[tonydee]

Tony: Now that we've been discussing a lot about our back leg side kicks (thrusting, piercing, etc), how/what do you utilize for a front leg side kick? Not a stepping together/cross-over front leg side kick, utilizing a momentum building step first, but a front leg side kick without a step? Would you use a front leg piercing kick motion? Again, this would feel odd to me, but I haven't practiced it a lot, either. I am interested to hear your take, and everyone else's here, too.

I tend to use a thrusting kick, but that may be partly because my habits were formed before I'd really tried to understand and develop the piercing kick. From the fighting stance I use, the thrusting kick is much stronger and better balanced, so I feel more certain of coping with any unbalancing blocks or grabs and stepping down in a controlled fashion, and the hip motion allows a hooking kick to be substituted pretty freely.

That said, I personally find the front-leg side piercing kick to be one of the most difficult techniques to avoid when closing aggressively on an opponent. A couple of my juniors in my old school had the requisite flexibility and strength to deliver it without significant telegraphing, and the timing to hit just as I reached the focal distance, and it would be the only technique that either of them had any success against me with, so I do recommend developing it. It's not so good for targetting or chasing a less aggressive opponent, as it has a very small focal range, fairly close in.

Hope that helps...

Cheers,

Tony

[sensei8]

I don't care how it's chambered, I don't care where it's chambered at, and I don't care the position of the body during the chamber. All I care about is how long the practitioner intends to stay in the chamber! To long, I'm there before one can utter..."Boo"!

Shindokan stylists drill to jam all the time. One of the drills calls for #A to deliver any kick towards our partner...#B advances forward as quick as one can to catch the kicking leg IN its chambering postition.

He who takes to long, meditates horizontally~Ed Parker

Edited July 23, 2009 by sensei8

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for the ideas, Tony and Bob.