Side Kick Question

[DWx]

With all due respect tonydee I think the terminology you are using to differentiate the thrusting kick and the piercing kick are incorrect as far as ITF style is concerned.

The difference between the piercing and thrusting variations of the side kick are that the thrusting kick uses the ball of the foot rather than the footsword and thrusts rather than pierces through the target.

What I think you call a thrusting kick would actually be referred to use as a spinning side kick or 360 side kick.

[bushido_man96]

Ah, well, that adds to the confusion for me a bit. I think I'll just call it side kick. Its easier that way.

[tonydee]

My homey's from RENO at Martial Arts on the Move!!!! Interesting that you found that one Tony!

I hadn't heard of them before, but if that video's any indication it must be a fun crowd

When we do our cross-over stepping side kicks in basics, I think it might be more like the piercing kick. However, for a time, I was doing it like a thrusting kick, which slowed me way down, and really changed the balance and the way the power came on the kick.

That all rings true. If the supporting-foot-to-be crosses in front of the kicking foot, then a piercing kick is easy; if it goes behind then thrusting is easy.

When I do a back leg side kick in our basics, I'm not sure which it would fall under. I get a good pivot, and and my leg up tight, but I don't think I get quite to the butt-pointing-at-the-target point. I bring the back leg up more like a front kick chamber, and then get it into the side kick position towards the beginning of the kicking motion. That way, I don't feel like I am "swinging" my leg around to do the kick. I like it to feel like my power is going forward.

Lifting the leg like a front kick would prevent the full hip rotation for a piercing kick, so if it's not a thrusting kick either, then I guess it slips in between the two. My belief is that that means it's probably not maximising power - some more comments about that below....

In my TKD training, I have never been taught a side "piercing" kick or a side "thrusting" kick. I have always just done a side kick. I've seen Choi talk of both in the Encyclopedia, but have never worried about distinguising between the two. So this has been somewhat enlightening to me.

My original school never discussed the difference either, which is why I practiced thrusting kicks exclusively for many years. Choi does mention both, which ties in with...

I think the terminology you are using to differentiate the thrusting kick and the piercing kick are incorrect as far as ITF style is concerned.

The difference between the piercing and thrusting variations of the side kick are that the thrusting kick uses the ball of the foot rather than the footsword and thrusts rather than pierces through the target.

It's really hard to know for sure, as the ITF is a huge organisation and these differences sadly aren't made clear in the encyclopaedia or any other standard reference of which I'm aware, so understandings may vary depending on the particular instructors you've been exposed to. I never found these terms commonly understood in the ITF, but when I've spoken to ITF instructors who understood that there are two directions of hip movement and consequent kicking actions, they have always related them to piercing and thrusting movements, saying they differ in this way.

The ball of the foot was indeed recommended for the thrusting kick, but I believe that was orthogonal to the classification of the kick itself, much as say a middle-knuckle fist might be recommended for a crescent punch, but is still a crescent punch if executed with a normal fist.

Re the recommendation: kicking with the ball extends the reach slightly, arguably useful as the gliding (step behind) thrusting kick has the longest reach of all the single-step grounded TKD movements, so it's often used to chase a retreating opponent, or close ground unexpectedly on a charging opponent. Personally, I think extending the ball makes it harder to achieve a strong locking action, and I'm more worried about the ankle being damaged, so I prefer not to follow that recommendation.

If I'm right about the ball vs foot-sword vs heel all being legitimate choices for thrusting kicks, then the distinction with piercing kicks boils down to where you've said "and thrusts rather than pierces through the target", but that makes the difference one of unexplained terminology... what is thrusting vs piercing? In the context of a side kick, I believe the terminology reflects the two different hip movements I've listed above. If you have some other definition in mind, please share it .

If you have specific experiences with the ITF that make it clear I am wrong about the above, or just more circumstantial insight, please be blunt in correcting me and explaining. I have never been a member of the ITF - though I've trained with and taught for 8th dan Master DeSilva in London for a short while and attended all of one Rhee Ki Ha seminar (he did ask why I didn't wear an ITF uniform ). Master Rhee, Chong Chul - under whom I started my training - was one of Choi, Hong Hi's 12 original masters sent by the KTA to disseminate taekwondo worldwide, so the terminology and my experience is largely similar though (to pre sine-wave days).

What I think you call a thrusting kick would actually be referred to use as a spinning side kick or 360 side kick.

Not sure that would solve the terminology problem, as the thrusting kick I mention can be executed from front- or back-leg without spinning....

Terminology is such a pain. I definitely don't want to abuse ITF terminology and confuse ITF students or misrepresent ITF. Still, whatever they might be called and whether or not they're practiced in ITF, I believe that the distinction re direction of hip rotation is core to mastering the side kick, and once you start actively and carefully looking to get a motion that both generates maximum hip movement and delivers it efficiently to the target, you almost inevitably end up with variants very similar to what I've described above. I consider most of the variations in the youtube videos discussed to fall into a thigh-power-only middle ground. I can't say a side kick is wrong if it doesn't employ stronger hip power - in some situation you may not need that much power - but it's still my belief that side kick should be based upon hip power so it's there in reserve for when needed, especially as it doesn't seem to involve compromises re telegraphing, vulnerability to counters, recovery etc., and if anything using the hip power helps prevent muscles like the thigh getting fatigued during a fight, and allows frailer people to lift the leg higher more easily, and kick powerfully and comfortably.

Cheers,

Tony

Edited July 2, 2009 by tonydee

[DWx]

Interesting analysis Tony. Master DeSilva and GM Rhee are certainly a strong background to come from. I'd never heard the thrusting kick described in the way you did and had always been taught that it was very similar to the side kick motion albeit thrusting instead of piercing. I'm not very good at explaining that but when I've thought about it a bit more I may offer up my definition. The whole ball of the foot distinction I just took from the (condensed) Encylcopedia but as far as the photos are concerned it looks pretty much the same as the side kick and it doesn't suggest rotation.

[bushido_man96]

When I do a back leg side kick in our basics, I'm not sure which it would fall under. I get a good pivot, and and my leg up tight, but I don't think I get quite to the butt-pointing-at-the-target point. I bring the back leg up more like a front kick chamber, and then get it into the side kick position towards the beginning of the kicking motion. That way, I don't feel like I am "swinging" my leg around to do the kick. I like it to feel like my power is going forward.

Lifting the leg like a front kick would prevent the full hip rotation for a piercing kick, so if it's not a thrusting kick either, then I guess it slips in between the two. My belief is that that means it's probably not maximising power...

I may not have been clear here on my motions. I start the motion like a front kick, bringing the chamber up in front of my body, but then, I pivot on my base leg, and shift my body into the sideways position, and try to then point the heel into the direction of the kick.

So, instead of doing a large circling motion with a chambered leg, it goes straight forward, and then I turn my hips to the side. If you could imagine doing a knee strike with the back (right) leg, I would be doing this knee strike at almost a 45 degree angle to my left; from there I turn over the hips to get into side kick position. Does that make sense?

[tonydee]

I may not have been clear here on my motions. I start the motion like a front kick, bringing the chamber up in front of my body, but then, I pivot on my base leg, and shift my body into the sideways position, and try to then point the heel into the direction of the kick.

So, instead of doing a large circling motion with a chambered leg, it goes straight forward, and then I turn my hips to the side. If you could imagine doing a knee strike with the back (right) leg, I would be doing this knee strike at almost a 45 degree angle to my left; from there I turn over the hips to get into side kick position. Does that make sense?

Yes, I think I'm with you. It sounds a lot like the preparation for a thrusting kick, just not taking that bit extra time to let the hips and kicking knee bounce backwards then sling forwards, getting that extra power in the kick.

For comparison, I've dug out the pictures / diagrams I made about 10 years ago of the two variations I've been describing, available here.

Included:

- 6 frames showing stages in the thrusting kick variation

- 5 frames showing stages in the jamming kick variation

- one diagram of the thrusting kick

- one diagram of the jamming kick

Each diagram is superimposed on a frame of video of a full-speed and full-power back leg kick. The position shown reflects the reality of the timing when the kick is well drilled.

The other images are static poses I've held for a timed shutter release, and represent idealised and slightly exaggerated positions to help learn the kick, suitable for slower practice.

(Sorry about the big "titles" hereafter... just trying to structure this a bit so it's easier to read and comment on...)

THRUSTING KICK

The crucial thing here is that the thrusting kick pivots over and the knee is brought backwards momentarily (at least relative to the overall forwards movements of the kick)...

- stretching the muscles in the buttocks and back much as they stretch when you lie flat on your back, bend the leg so the calf is up against the hamstrings, and pull the knee towards your shoulder, and

- stretching the muscles throughout the torso that allow the hips to twist relative to the shoulders, such that the top/kicking hip dips downwards and backwards

After relaxing into both stretches, a kind of plyometric contraction is generated by thrusting the supporting leg against the ground - pushing the lower/non-kicking hip forwards and increasing those stretches. The resultant contraction through all these muscles thrusts the leg forwards, and is combined with a thrust from the other/kicking thigh.

PIERCING KICK

Note in the slow practice version of the piercing kick the kicking leg is brought up dramatically to the side of the body. The hips are not rotated until the leg is extending, and the foot turns as they close and jam in behind the kick. This was the motion I likened to a turning/roundhouse kick, as the foot reaches the target in an arc, with the hips and upper body weight engaged to generate the twisting motion stabbing the kicking foot through the target.

DISCUSSION - DIFFERENCES BETWEEN SLOW AND FAST EXECUTION

There will be no conscious shift away from the illustrated movements used for slow practice... it's just that when you've done it a lot the timing and movements tighten up where they can, and the importance of momentary momentums, inertias, and relative speeds and distances involved in the muscular contractions is accentuated, forcing the movements to combine/overlap slightly differently, though the subjective feeling is the same.

For instance, to practice a thrusting kick, it's good to aim the knee to heel line at the target before extending the kick, which would make it slant in towards the target from the side (compared to a line from centre of mass to target). This is practical and desirable for a stepping/gliding front leg kick, a long-range flying side thrusting kick, or the "spinning" side/back kick, but in full speed execution for a back leg side thrusting kick you don't have the luxury of taking the time to do so, and the foot follows a more linearly line from in front of the hips into the target. The essential thing though is that there's been the relaxation across the hips to let the top/kicking hip roll over, and the muscles through the buttocks to stretch, so that when the supporting foot's snap against the ground pushes the supporting hip forward both these backwards movements finish and a whipping forward movement results. It's a lot like plyometric theory: let these things go to full stretch and the body kicks in to contract the muscles. All fine tuning, but it's essential to train the muscles to rotate and lock in the simpler stepping or spinning kick versions so that the same mechanisms can be "reconnected to" in the more complicated back leg kick.

That there should be a disparity between slow execution and fast, between one's subjective impression of movement and the video-taped reality, is a very important insight, especially for an instructor who needs to recognise correct and incorrect technique at any speed. Another example of this is reverse vs obverse hand thrusting techniques: practicing an idealised reverse punch in a forward/walking stance develops the hip rotation that, once the body has mastered, you can "reconnect to" from a wide variety of stances with either leg forward. Getting the body used to "twitching" and chaining the contractions up from the legs through the hips and torso and out the arm is the core skill, best developed in deep walking stance with reverse (back arm) thrusting technique, makes other variations powerful, even if they involve some compromise compared to the deep stance....

Cheers,

Tony

Edited July 3, 2009 by tonydee

[joesteph]

Excellent photo demos, Tony.

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for the photos, Tony. They help me understand a lot better.

First off, after seeing your pics of the piercing kick, I'll admit that I have never done it before. To bring the knee up from the outside like that just seems very foreign to me, for a side kick. I would do that with an inside crescent kick, but not with a side kick. At least not yet. It does seem like a very odd motion.

For the thrusting kick, the way I practice that now is much the same as you show, only I take the chambered leg up to that angle, which I feel keeps it tighter to my body, giving me more of a thrust, and a less big, swinging movement. We do get that initial hip twist in prior to chamber by virtue of a reverse punch in a front stance done prior to the kick.

Now, I would be interested in the front leg versions of these kicks. With the thrusting kick off the front leg, would you still pick it up like a front kick chamber, and then use the pivoting motion? What about the piercing kick?

[tonydee]

Thanks for the photos, Tony. They help me understand a lot better.

Very welcome. YMMV of course, and I'm not expecting everyone to agree with all the pro/con analysis I've sprouted, but great to be discussing this and will very much welcome more contributitions whether textual or links to youtube or other sites - great to contrast them and talk it around.

First off, after seeing your pics of the piercing kick, I'll admit that I have never done it before. To bring the knee up from the outside like that just seems very foreign to me, for a side kick. I would do that with an inside crescent kick, but not with a side kick. At least not yet. It does seem like a very odd motion.

So true! This was the one I avoided for the first 10 years of my martial arts experience, despite being the prescribed kick for the taekwondo hyung/patterns/kata/tul that I practiced (and still do). Feels very strange at first. Was Hapkido GM/Co-founder Bong Soo Han's use of this variant that finally persuaded me to give it a chance, and consider it not as simply inferior, but rather something that could be a better tool in certain limited but real situations: particular a less telegraphed front leg kick into a charging opponent, or a less energetic back leg kick after stepping diagonally to avoid an attack. It requires perfect distancing when you start the kick, as the focal depth is small and it's hard to vary the distance at which the kick extends without ruining the power generation or unbalancing yourself on impact.

For the thrusting kick, the way I practice that now is much the same as you show, only I take the chambered leg up to that angle, which I feel keeps it tighter to my body, giving me more of a thrust, and a less big, swinging movement. We do get that initial hip twist in prior to chamber by virtue of a reverse punch in a front stance done prior to the kick.

Yes - it does look very wide from the body in those shots - think it's partly the camera angle, partly exaggerating that deliberately to encourage that big swing, as it's better for a beginner to learn to loosen up and cultivate that swing then tighten it up a year or so later, than try to start tight and never get a solid contribution from the "swing" and related buttock/hip movements. As you can see in the video frame of full-speed delivery, the kicking foot does actually stay in line, though it still won't really feel like it is.

Reverse punch is a great way to cover while twisting the body to help raise the kicking leg across quickly: exactly what I'd recommend for combination/sparring drills (well, with a front jab, reverse).

Now, I would be interested in the front leg versions of these kicks. With the thrusting kick off the front leg, would you still pick it up like a front kick chamber, and then use the pivoting motion? What about the piercing kick?

For thrusting, I do not chambed like a front kick. Instead, I pick the leg up straight into the chambered position: it basically arcs up off the ground to chamber at the side with buttocks and hips down/backwards relaxing into a stretch, then they all contract and sling forwards with the thigh contraction.

For piercing kick, the front leg and back leg actions are more similar: to get familiar with the action, you still lift it into the side-cocked position in "step 2" and kick from there as the hips/supporting-foot rotate. Again, with increasing experience the move is tightened with an awareness of whether the power is being retained (even increased) properly.

Regards,

Tony

[DWx]

Found two tutorials for the side kick; what this guy calls the

and a

version. I find it quite interesting that this guys varient is actually what I'd been taught and use as standard and his normal version would be the varient. If I get your descriptions Tony, would you say the first is similar-ish to your thrust kick and the second to the piercing version?