Side Kick Question

[frightmaster]

For me, my heel is pointing in the direction at the time of impact, or close to it. When the timing os correct from the start of the kick till the end, the heel should rotate just before the leg get extended for max power.

[joesteph]

For me, my heel is pointing in the direction at the time of impact, or close to it.

What frightmaster is saying is right on the mark. Here are videos that you can access to see what he says, in motion:

The best one, in that it's a teaching one:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=4j1w—TjqVY

A short teaching demo:

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/90392_soo-bahk-do-kicks-side.htm

Another short teaching demo:

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/94532_tae-kwon-do-strikes-kicks-side-kick.htm

A combo, teaching both the regular and spinning versions:

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/133940_kickboxing-combos-side-kick-spinning.htm

[KarateEd]

Interesting videos, thanks for posting them.

[joesteph]

The best one, in that it's a teaching one:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=4j1w—TjqVY

This video's link problem is that the dash before the end, TjqVY, came out as a single, combined line when posted, but it's two hyphens together:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=4j1w--TjqVY

It's really a very good video.

[blackbelt94]

your instructor is right, the foot should be pointing away. as for the pain in your hip, make sure you roll your hip fully, so you're perfectly straight

[tonydee]

There are several legitimate variations on the side kick, involving different movement of the hips, different timing, kicking foot trajectories and supporting foot rotation.

First variation: what I've commonly heard called the side 'snap' kick. Shotokan's Kagawa sensei demonstrates it here. I'll ignore it for now, as it's rarely seen in taekwondo or hapkido, and there's a separate thread asking about it.

Two other variations are what the ITF calls the side thrusting kick, and the side piercing kick. They are fundamentally different. The piercing kick is specified almost exclusively throughout the hyung/tul of ITF. Despite my practice of the same patterns, I held it in contempt for many years and favoured the thrusting kick, until Hapkido GM Bong Soo Han asked everyone to perform the piercing kick at a seminar I attended, and I figured practicing an extra technique was better than being obviously unfamiliar with elementary techniques at such moments .

For simplicity, I'll assume a right leg kick, and clockwise will be from the perspective of the kicker's vision.

In the 'piercing' kick, the body rotates in the same direction as for a back leg turning/roundhouse kick - anti-clockwise. The movement feels similar, but the timing is very different and the leg is brought through much more linearly, the foot quickly lifted in front of the right hip, then the supporting foot and hips rotate together while the kicking leg extends, foot effectively jammed out in a slight right-to-left arc to reach the target. Note that the supporting foot does not turn early. This kick works a bit like a hammer hitting a nail, where the kick legs hip is driving from behind to jam the leg (= nail) across and through the target.

If you imagine looking down from above and seeing a line through your centre of mass and the target, your kicking foot is forms an arc on the right of that line. Consequently, the kick does not travel straight in to the target - it's 10 or 20 degrees anti-clockwise of that. The supporting foot stops rotating while facing diagonally forwards, right of the target. Because the supporting heel never faces towards the target, any unexpected level of resistance from the target can unbalance the kicker. The kicker is vulnerable to a supporting-knee break. And, the supporting foot is never aligned to push the kicker further towards the target should they retreat further than expected. If they move in closer, it may be too cramped to bring the kick up and get some speed into the extension before striking the target. All up, the kick has what I call a "shallow focal range". One of the best uses of the piercing kick is as a relatively quick, untelegraphed front leg kick, from a fighting stance with front foot/knee nearly forwards, into the ribs of a charging opponent.

The thrusting kick is a completely different beast. It rotates in the opposite direction: clockwise for a right leg kick. It is similar to a spinning back kick, and goes very well with stepping or gliding footwork. First the supporting foot rotates so the heel faces the target, supporting leg bent, then the kicking leg is cocked with the line from knee to ankle raised and pointed at the target, then the supporting foot jerks the non-kicking hip forwards as a kind of backswing and preparation for the kicking-side hip to be violently twisted towards the target, with that slinging the leg forwards. It is an enormously powerful kick, and because the supporting leg faces away from the target, it can contribute extra power or forward movement to increase range, or accommodate a bit to allow kicking an overly close target. The supporting leg can absorb reaction forces, keeping you stable after contact. Another bonus for this kick is that the preparation is suitable for extending a hooking kick, and the defender will have a very hard time working out which kick to prepare to block.

I have some old notes for a book I was working on, with frames from video all annotated with arrows and comments, but that's probably too much to post in here.

So, to answer the OP: which was the foot should face depends on which variant of side kick you're executing. Still, in general: if it hurts, kick lower and slower until you work it out.

Re the youtube clips suggested:

Revolution of Kicking: the action shown completes the hip rotation before the kick is extended, pushing the kick in a direct line to the target. This has very little power: only the thigh is engaged. Both the kicks mentioned above sling the foot around the hips in an arc, powering the kick from the hip movement.

Geoff Sterling, Hollywood Soo Banh Do: absolutely appauling. His balance is terrible, the kicking knee twists downwards during the extension because his foot is twisted at the wrong angle (big toe pressed out). And his hip movement is twisting away from the target during the leg extension! He's effectively starting to drag the leg backwards away from the target even as it's making contact, ensuring poor power, and making it likely he'll be pushed over backwards by - rather than stopping - a charging opponent.

Taekwondo Side Kick: The first part of the video is pretty useless as the supporting foot isn't shown while the kicking action is, and the camera angle is bizarre. He's a bit wonky with the hip rotation sometimes. But, close. Later on he's shows a short gliding (he calls it "step behind") side kick into the target: that's the best bit to learn from.

Mike Mallon: kickboxing combos. Again, terrible camera work make much of the the video pretty useless. At about 1:45 you can actually see what he's doing. The right/supporting heel is rotated early and maybe 20 degrees to the left of the target, then the kicking leg is brought up and fairly linearly into the target. There's little hip rotation here.

Some other candidates: Bruce Lee - not much hip rotation there: he's more concerned with rocking the body back about the centre of mass to kick quickly while gaining reach. Having a target focuses his mind on the power generation in the video here. Kicks from ~1:04: can't see his feet properly, but can see him falling backwards off the bag. I have looked at these videos for years - I'm a bit disappointed as I thought they're be better.

lacks full hip rotation during the kick: staying too front on in the approach.

... didn't find anything better than the taekwondo one above ...

Cheers,

Tony

[bushido_man96]

Thanks for the descriptions, Tony. When I do a back leg side kick, which would be the side piercing kick you describe, I usually try to get my base leg pivoted so that the heel points at the target. I don't know if that changes the total kick or not, but "side piercing kick" is not the nomenclature that I use; I just call it a back leg side kick. Our spinning side kick is our version of your side thrusting kick, as near as I can tell. Let me know if I am off here at all when comparing descriptions, though.

[tonydee]

When I do a back leg side kick, which would be the side piercing kick you describe, I usually try to get my base leg pivoted so that the heel points at the target. I don't know if that changes the total kick or not, but "side piercing kick" is not the nomenclature that I use; I just call it a back leg side kick. Our spinning side kick is our version of your side thrusting kick, as near as I can tell. Let me know if I am off here at all when comparing descriptions, though.

The clue you've given me re your back leg side kick is that your foot has the heel towards the target, which by itself sounds more like a thrusting kick, but if you think it might be a piercing kick, then the checklist is:

- are you rotating the supporting foot only as the kick is extended [piercing], or beforehand [thrusting]?

- when you start to thrust with the kicking leg, is the foot coming from the back side (i.e. right of the line to target for a right leg kick) [piercing] or chest side (left) [thrusting]?

- are the hips rotating anti-clockwise [piecing] or clockwise [thrusting]?

It is possible you're just rotating the supporting foot a bit further than I usually do, emphasising stretching out into the kick more than the power from the hip rotation.

I wish my HD camcorder's firewire port was compatible with Vista / Windows 7, but as is I can't upload any new video. I might have something lying around... will have a look later. Do consider posting some video of your kick if you have it. Actually, I've been thinking that having some ability to capture video from webcams might really add life to this board, as this stuff is hard to talk about in words. I also frequent a photography forum, and actually being able to see the things you're discussing, and post examples of possible alternatives, makes a world of difference.

Separately, we're almost certainly on the same page with the thrusting kick resembling a spinning side kick: it flows very naturally after a spin, wheras the piercing version would be incredibly awkward. It's easy to imagine it being like a horse kicking. I actually found a

: the explanation is excellent (it takes a while before he actually shows anything) but his normal-speed execution is a bit stiff (which prevents fuller hip movement). I particularly like that video because it illustrates how to reconnect to the same thrusting direction of hip movement from a back leg kick: very powerful, but doing it at full speed does take excellent timing and control. One of those kicks that sports styles tend to abandon because people don't want to wait a few years to get a kick working well: wanting to avoid getting pummelled in the next fight encourages a short term focus.

Something I should have mentioned earlier for thrusting kick, as it's an important safety issue. As the leg extends, do not leave your back towards the target, arching the spine. This mistake leaves the leg extension pushing the thigh into a ballistic stretch, tugging and pinching all the muscles and connective tissues down the spine. Not only does that hurt and do damage, but the extension will be fought by the nervous system's protective instincts, reducing power. Instead, the upper body should not arch forwards or backwards, but turn sideways and tilt backwards, with the head sighting the target across the pectoral (not over the shoulder) during the leg extension.

Cheers, Tony

[ninjanurse]

My homey's from RENO at Martial Arts on the Move!!!! Interesting that you found that one Tony!

[bushido_man96]

I usually tend to rotate my foot as I'm kicking.

When we do our spinning side kicks, out butt is usually pointing at the target, like the video clip you showed demonstrates, so I would but that as a thrusting kick, for sure.

When we do our cross-over stepping side kicks in basics, I think it might be more like the piercing kick. However, for a time, I was doing it like a thrusting kick, which slowed me way down, and really changed the balance and the way the power came on the kick.

When I do a back leg side kick in our basics, I'm not sure which it would fall under. I get a good pivot, and and my leg up tight, but I don't think I get quite to the butt-pointing-at-the-target point. I bring the back leg up more like a front kick chamber, and then get it into the side kick position towards the beginning of the kicking motion. That way, I don't feel like I am "swinging" my leg around to do the kick. I like it to feel like my power is going forward.

In my TKD training, I have never been taught a side "piercing" kick or a side "thrusting" kick. I have always just done a side kick. I've seen Choi talk of both in the Encyclopedia, but have never worried about distinguising between the two. So this has been somewhat enlightening to me.