Combative Martial Arts: Aren't they all?

[bushido_man96]

In answering Bushidoman, I think that all the martial arts originally began as strictly combative sciences, but down through time some have become sport (Judo to Jujitsu, for example). I think that these sports can still be utilized in self-defense situations...

I agree with you here, Bushido-Ruach. I feel that since many sport styles evolved from a more combat based style, then it is a simple matter of extrapolation to make it more self-defense oriented.

[The BB of C]

I always thought that all styles were combative too. I've just always worded it as "any one style is not more or less efficient than another except in rare circumstances."

I believe that all martial arts are combative. But without a doubt in my mind not all martial arts schools are combative. Those are things like McDojos or simply schools that don't teach the style correctly or in a way that would produce a good fighter without the practicionter having to dip into other styles to become efficient.

For example, most Tae Kwon Do schools in North America are black belt factories. However, most people understand that Tae Kwon Do (as a style) can produce fighters with very powerful and effective legs and reflexes.

[joesteph]

I believe that all martial arts are combative. But without a doubt in my mind not all martial arts schools are combative. . . .

I wondered, BB of C, what your thoughts are on a school that may not be presenting itself as a combative one, or presents itself as a stepping-stone in combative conditioning?

In the school that I attend, which is not even a year-and-a-half old, the children (such as the Little Tigers, who are ages 4-7) are not taught in the same manner as the adults, even though many parents want their children to be able to defend themselves against bullies. The students who are ages 8-12 are in a middle ground, in that they understand that what they are being taught is actually combative, but they would not be expected to give a strong fight against a teenager (hit hard and get out of there). The non-contact emphasis in sparring is emphasized by my instructor. As for the teens and adults, I've found a mixture of who attends. I've found the majority satisfied with non-contact; it's what they want, though they may say they want to learn self-defense, and some are there because they feel this is a sport they can do (you go at your own pace), or even for the health benefits they feel they receive. Individuals like me, who would like to do some contact, even light contact, and who have realistic confidence in the sparring gear available, are in short supply there. (We "lost" an eighteen-year-old who wasn't afraid to mix it up to the Marine Corps this month. Non-contact sparring between him and me was monitored by my instructor, who I believe wanted to strangle us on occasion.) If my instructor pushed contact for teens and adults now, I wonder if she'd lose students; if she waits, and it may be for a few years, enrollment will likely increase, and it may be much safer to introduce it then.

Would you agree that, so long as the students have a reasonable understanding of what they're being taught, such as that they are taught to a certain point and no further, that the school is bona fide and is a martial art school?

[bushido_man96]

I would say it is a Martial Art school, but it does need a rework on some of its methods.

[tallgeese]

I tend to agree with bushdo man here, but I'm not really happy about feeling that way.

Admittedly, by my strictest interpertaion, it would not be. Still, the meaning of the arts has fractured so much in recent years it's really hard to say definitively.

I think of ma's as methods of learning to fight. If you're training as put forth ealier, are you really doing that? I don't know that you are. I wouldn't want to take methodology like that into the ring, let alone my job where the stakes can be signifigantly higher.

I think that if you boil down an art to it's essance, it should be about fighting. At the end of the debate, that's the litimus test. If, realistically, you can't say that it is, then maybe you're not doing martial arts as they were conceptualized.

Just some ramblings.

[Chikara]

Good one Joe! I often find myself in the same situation, only light sparring (even with a lot of gear; head, mouth, foot, hand)! I really want to know it works, the only way is with lots of gear and med-heavy contact.

 

But, when we're doing certain drills together, Sensei will say not to go soft on each other. The others go soft because they're afraid of hurting me, so I crank up my own attacks and tell them to do it harder.

 

In this other dojo I'm going to, there's this sweet guy (father of 2) and he does the worst techniques in order to go soft on me. He'll grab his fist to let me know he's going to punch, he'll punch in slow-mo, then he'll make it spin when I've already blocked to make sure I block the "right" way. It totally throws me off. How do I fix that problem?

[joesteph]

In this other dojo I'm going to, there's this sweet guy (father of 2) and he does the worst techniques in order to go soft on me. He'll grab his fist to let me know he's going to punch, he'll punch in slow-mo, then he'll make it spin when I've already blocked to make sure I block the "right" way. It totally throws me off. How do I fix that problem?

It sounds to me like a man who's "old school," which is the way I've been described. It's a combination of striking a woman and striking someone younger. I don't know his age, but I think of injuries I've done to others by accident in the past. I wonder if he ever accidentally injured anyone?

There is a way to handle this, but it has to be done with a portrayal of sincerity and firmness, rather than as an expression of anger. I was in the same situation you are in right now, but I am fifty-six, and the best student to spar against was eighteen. It's non-contact, but he held back too much; even doing self-defense exercises, he was still holding back too much. I chose to stop whatever we were doing, be it sparring or self-defense, and tell him politely but firmly "Don't do this to me." I told him more than one time that he is disrespecting me if he doesn't treat me as an equal (sounds like something a woman would say to a man, but this is a case of a middle-aged man saying it to a younger one). I told him we were both learning nothing, and that I have to pull my weight. Bit-by-bit, he loosened up, and when we sparred, even non-contact, we crashed into each other more than one time, prompting my instructor to remind us about the "non" in "non-contact." Even the self-defense techniques improved in working together. I miss the guy; he's just gone off to basic training in the Marine Corps.

You have to speak up, right to him, even if it means stopping what you're doing and being firm. You might smile when he goes in slow motion, refuse to move when it's coming at you, and say that he has to make it more genuine. Don't let him think you're mad at him; let him feel that he's working with you when he does as you ask. Your instructor may or may not like it, because it gives the appearance of "making a scene," but you're not doing that, Chikara, you're doing what needs to be done to be the martial artist you're striving to be.

[Chikara]

Thanks a lot, Joe!

 

Anger was the furthest thing from my mind. I just wanted to make sure. Our sensei loves good contact. He was in the Air Force, so he understands true combat. He always says, "Give them more juice."

 

The only thing that really annoys me would be the obsenely obvious telegraphing and the spinning of his whole arm to make me block the way he thinks I should.

 

The only thing I can do is stop midway and nicely tell him how people really attack. Thanks again!

[bushido_man96]

Good advise, joesteph. It is important that he understands that neither of you are benefitting from his politeness. Let him know that it won't happen like that in real time, so he needs to add a bit more to the realism. Then, you both learn more.

[Bushido-Ruach]

Joesteph....I hear what you're saying. I hope to teach my children, especially my daughter, how to defend themselves. I practicing self-defense there does have to be a very real quality of reality in the practice, which is why I spend so much money on safety equipment. My higher ranking students will wear chest protectors, forearm protectors, head guards, etc and do mid-range full contact one-step sparring (we haven't had anyone knocked out yet.....where in the classes I began in, we had sparring night every Friday night and had at least 1-2 knock-outs per night...and that with moderate safety equipment).

The one-step sparring gives them the opportunity to fine-tune their timing and execution of techniques. This is also where we find out what techniques work for someone and which ones don't work so well....this is where they discover their favorite techniques for different situations and work on variations for slight variations in attacks.

One thing that I would also suggest is learning some stop-hit blocks (because from my limited experience, most karate styles that I have knowledge of don't hurt the opponent's arm upon execution of the block, which is key in self-defense in my opinion), and then drill those stop-hit blocks until they are second nature. The reason for this is...especially when dealing with more than one attacker (which hopefully we never have to deal with), the stop-hit blocks HURT LIKE **** and when a pressure point is hit, the arm drops not soon to come up again....you have just ended the confrontation in one-on-one, or eliminated one of several opponents that you don't have to worry about for a while.

For me, stop-hit blocks also act as my "warning shot"...saying, "There, you are hurt and I'm not. You know that I can hurt you again if you try to hit me again, so if you attack me again, I AM going to hurt you again." Believe it or not, when a would-be attacker punches at you, throws out his arm and gets it back screaming in pain, he thinks twice before sending out his other arm.

Pain truely is one of THE great teachers!!!

Blessings to you.