Leniency on younger students?

[Tiger1962]

Of course there are exceptions to everything. I'm NOT generalizing and saying ALL kids that are dan members are not mature or capable or worthy of that rank. There are exceptions everywhere and in all ages. But being too lenient on kids and letting them slide when they don't know all their requirements is just wrong. What lesson does that teach them? Of course a 9 or 10 year old black belt is not the same as a 25 year old black belt and and yes there are some 25 yr old black belts that are not mature either (and older) but I am referring to the majority. How fair is it when FOR EXAMPLE you have two capable (let's say 10 yr old) students and one is serious about karate and knows all his stuff and the other is spoiled and lazy and slacks off yet expects the same promotion? Should the spoiled one's standards of testing be lowered? I don't think so.

I don't believe a 10 year old black belt can physically defend himself against a 25 or 30 year old attacker. But definitely, it's still important to teach them! Now, give them a black belt? NO. And again, there are exceptions to every rule - but that still isn't the majority. That's why if kids were graded separately it would be better. Crazyferret made EXCELLENT points to explain WHY. And, at the very least, the age requirement to reach dan member should be 16 or 18.

When black belts are given out to just anyone and so easily, it loses its value and is not appreciated and in my opinion, also makes it seem all the more McDojo-ish. I see kids who have no disability, no mental impairments, etc., and yet, do not know their basic white belt curriculum that they are required to know & yet are allowed to test. Is that fair to those other students that work their tail off and train hard? I don't think so.

9 out of 10 times when a young kid joins karate, one of the first questions he asks his instructor or parent is how long is it going to take for him to get his black belt. They need to be told and demonstrated through training that this is something you EARN and work HARD for - not that they are going to get it because well, they're just a kid so let's pass them.

As far as becoming a dan member, it's not just the physical capabilities; its mental & emotional matureness and that's something that comes with age. And yes there are exceptions to every rule - but not a heck of a lot.

Is it because they are not forum members...

How would we know if they are not forum members?

[joesteph]

Is it because they are not forum members...

How would we know if they are not forum members?

I don't follow the quote you took, Tiger. It's too out of context as to what I posted. Here's the paragraph:

I've not noticed in the forums instructors who tested younger students and posted that these younger ones reached dan membership because they earned it. Is it because they are not forum members, or because they expect that if they post, they'll be chastized? Let's invite postings by those from a school in which "the young" (up for broad interpretation) have achieved recognition as dan members and that, in the opinion of the awarder, the student truly earned it?

I specifically said "I've not noticed"; then I asked why. To gain knowledge, I then presented an invitation.

Are you yourself an instructor who tested younger students and awarded dan membership based on their abilities, Tiger? If so, great; please share the merit you discovered when you decided that dan membership was earned. If you or another member of the forums haven't, then, to clarify in case of misinterpretation, the question is not directed to those who have not.

I was hoping for a response by someone who had judged and determined that dan membership would be awarded to a "young student." That person (or persons) who made that judgment call could then be sharing his/her thoughts freely, that we may exchange knowledge in a spirit of dialogue.

The invitation is still open.

[bushido_man96]

I have been a student and instructor of schools that promoted kids under the age of 13 to black belt. I have promoted kids before.

Now, with that said, I have varying opinions on the topic. When we bring up the topic of rank under this circumstance, then rank becomes something pristine, something sacred, and something not to be determined lightly (the latter, I agree with). So, with this in mind, many people think that there could be no way that a child could be mature enough to handle the responsiblities of being named a black belt.

Now, under just about any other circumstance, we all say that "rank is nothing, proof is on the floor," and "black belt is just the beginning." So, with this in mind, then a black belt rank should be demonstrable by their actions on the floor and with others, whether they were a belt or not.

So, I've opened up a whole other can of worms here, I guess. Now that I have come a bit futher along in my MA career, I would most likely have a different opinion of promoting kids. But, it is just my opinion, so take it for what its worth to you.

[DWx]

Funnily enough tonight, while I was looking through some random websites, I came across the competition page for a certain org. Looking on the categories, there was a section for 1-7 year old 1st dans. Whilst generally I think there can be under 16 year old bbelts, that was a little too far for me.. that was until I scrolled a little further down and there was a category for 1-7 year old 2nd to 3rd dan! Little bit too much in my opinion.

In my instructor's school kids can be promoted to 1st dan but in most cases they will stop at there until they are much older. So its kinda being a blackbelt but they can't yet advance through the blackbelt ranks. Having said that, there are a couple of exceptions but in these cases the "kids" are truly something else. Incredibly dedicated and mature in my opinion. They all have to test to the same standards as you would test the adults.

[Traymond]

I dont think you should be lenient. Kids start martial arts at an early age all the time, and you have to be strong with them, because they like to play around, so you need to be able to control them and let them know whose boss. The parents will thank you in the long run. When i first started in TKD, my instructor use to paddle me on the rear end with a wooden paddle, whenever he saw me goofing around and that was at age five. At thirteen, if I did something wrong he would beat me. It turned me into someone that I am now. Which I am proud of. I am not saying that they should be that tough, but still..they should be stronger then most instructors are now.

[joesteph]

When i first started in TKD, my instructor use to paddle me on the rear end with a wooden paddle, whenever he saw me goofing around and that was at age five. At thirteen, if I did something wrong he would beat me.

What country are you from, Traymond? In the US, this is assault.

My children's instructor uses a more enlightened approach than beating the children. She uses her intellect. She uses her importance to the children, who respect her, and, perhaps, as my children do, will name her on the list of people that they love. My boys are age seven. They're special needs. My brother-in-law, when he was growing up, was beaten regularly by his father. Today, we would recognize that he was special needs, as is his daughter, my niece, and who has never been beaten. She's now attending community college--with never a bruise upon her body.

Children who are not special needs? Yes, my boys are mixed with them one day per week (the other day individually as special needs). I participate in both classes my children are members of, and I have found their instructor refraining from the misguided beating of any child to other, enlightened means. And I am not the only parent (or other relative) present, although I am the only parent on the dojang floor. The parent or relative is right there, in a place where chairs are set up, bearing witness and supportive of the instructor. A dojang is a school, and some school matters are best handled by aware family members.

At age thirteen, the student is in an adult class in my instructor's dojang. You stated that you were beaten at that age if you did anything wrong. What in the world could a thirteen-year-old have possibly done to warrant a punishment as primitive as a beating?

Were your parents aware of these corporal punishments? Is it in your culture? It's an appearance before a judge in a court of law in the US.

If you wish to look back at these times as golden years, that is your prerogative, but I would most certainly not.

[Traymond]

Things I did wrong in the past have no relevance now, only the facts that were taken upon me that made me better now, is what truly matters.

In the US, it is an assault only if you wish to press charges. If you wish not to, then the authorities cannot do anything, and yes my parents were fully aware of it. My teacher was Korean, living in the states, and even today we still go to korea together to practice with his teacher.

My instructor did what he had to do, to show me the importance of pain, and the mindset of mushin, no mind. He taught me that no matter what a person does to you, you have to be able to prevail through it.

I do not think of those years as my golden years, but they paved the road for me to walk to the golden years.

I am not saying that I would do this to my students, but I will not be hold a soft attitude towards them either. I believe in the okinawan concept of grinding my students down, till they realize that the picture is bigger than just learning martial arts. your reliving, traditions past down to differant students from instructors, and back then they were a matter of life and death, and I instill that training with them.

Elightened or not, that has nothing to do with your teaching methods, you can be like the zen master Bankei, and control people without controlling them. And still be able to teach, but yet you can be like Sun tzi, and show them the path with war, and still teach them the same principles that bankei could have taught. Both are meant for differant types of people but in the end, the ending is like. tea.

Green, black, red, they are all just tea boiled and steeped the same way. Some may taste bitter than others, but they are all still tea.

[Wa-No-Michi]

Hi Traymond,

I feel sure this approach worked for you, but I tend to agree with Joe in that this approach is wholly unacceptable in todays society.

I can't claim to be an expert in British law let alone American, but striking a child (or adult) with a paddle constitutes assault in my mind and further more contravenes all of the "Child Protection" processes that we have here in the UK. These exist to protect children from exactly this type of thing.

As far as it only being an assault if the recipient chooses to press charges, well here in the UK this is certainly no longer the case. There was a law passed within the last decade, (which arose as a result of domestic violence cases) that allows the authorities to press charges - even if they do not have the victim's consent.

This law was brought about because often, victims do not want to press charged for any number of reasons; be that fear or just misguided loyalty etc

Back on topic though, In my experience behavior management is / should be built the schools system as part of its pedagogy. Also if a teacher has good class room management skills along with a good knowledge of the art they are teaching this will automatically promote conformity and good behavior

[wolfgirl17]

I think a certain amount of leniency should be allotted to small children. I teach a Kid Tiger class for 4-7 year olds. They have their own rank system and they test about every 6 weeks for some type of recognition. This helps to keep their interest in the program. We use ½ rank striped belts, stars, patches, etc. The highest rank their children in this age group will receive is green belt. Once they achieve a green belt or turn 8, they get to go into what they refer to as the “big kids class”. The basic goals for children this young differ greatly than for the older kids. For instance, when doing form with a 4 year old, my goal is to get them to do some semblance of the move in the right direction.

Even in the “big kid” class, I’m more flexible. I’m semi-lenient on kids from ages 8-12. Chances are, they are going to be under the brown belt level. At age 13 or when testing for brown belt or above, (whichever comes first), the standards are higher. Should children understand things like the basics of a front stance, absolutely. Should their technque be exemplary? Nice idea. Yes, if you make a child wait a year between tests, their technique for their rank is going to be better, but will they be there in a year or will they get bored and quit? Kids need a lot of positive feedback. I would rather have a child test twice a year and score a 6 on a scale of 1-10 on their form as long as they have a love for training than to have a child test once a year and score a 9 on their form but only be there because mom and dad are making them. The child that scores a 6 has a better chance of staying in the art and eventually achieving that 9 in their form when they are older and more mature.

As far as child black belts, I used to have a standard rule that a child had to be at least 14 to receive a black belt. That was until I met Erin. The child was amazing. She loved to train and she was very good. She picked things up very quick. She was a complete natural. She began training with me with she was 8 years old and was a 1st gup red belt, when she was 10 years old. I could not see making her wait another 4 years to get her black belt when her technique was better than many of the adult 1st dans. Could she physically defend herself against a full grown man? It depends. Using a one on one test of strength, of course not. But I think if someone tried to kidnap her, she would have the element of surprise when she started punching, kicking and yelling. They certainly wouldn’t be expecting that. Could she get away? It is quite possible. But that was not the point. Her technique was black belt level and she had a great attitude. I decided to wait 6 months after awarding her 1st gup and give her a “pre-dan” rank and then wait another 6 months and test her for a “junior” black belt. (Yes, I created the rank for her). The understanding was that she would remain a junior 1st dan until she was 14 and then be eligible to test into the adult dan ranks. She became interested in teen activities and has since left the club. But I think her ranking was fair. So far, she is the only child I have ever done this with.

[Tiger1962]

I would never "hit" another person's child. However, if I was teaching a class and the child was misbehaving, it is my responsibility as a teacher to discipline the child. But that would not be in the form of physical punishment. That doesn't mean I don't think there's anything wrong with it if the parents did it. There are different levels of physical punishment and I'm not talking about beating the child. When I was a kid, if me or my siblings misbehaved, my parents would give us a smack and none of us grew up affected negatively by that. In fact, we grew up to respect & listen to our parents.

The other thing is if I was teaching a tots class or a young child's class, they'd have their own rank for kids only. Their rank would NOT be the SAME as the adult rank. An 8 or 10 year old black belt is NOT the same as an ADULT black belt - I don't care how talented or gifted the child is, the rank should NOT be equivalent to an adults.

I would NOT be lenient in teaching, meaning, I would NOT PROMOTE them if they didn't fully know their curriculum, whether that curriculum is knowing all their forms or simply knowing how to count in Chinese, Korean or Japanese. Whatever the curriculum level is for their age, they must know it and pass it or they do NOT advance.