in search of karate

[mel]

Greetings to all

Mel is my name and I'm calling from Melbourne Australia. I'm new here. In over 20 years, I have done some karate classes in both Shotokan and Goju. Unfortunately, it has not borne much fruit for me as I had been discouraged (from taking further classes) by the constant lack of regard for safety by many a student, especially the senior levels that I had to train with. One senior and respected female black-belt was kicked so hard and fast twice I was amazed her ovaries were still functioning to allow her to give birth. A young male brown belt from the same school was kicked so badly by a senior black-belt on the knee that he was no longer able to do zenkutsu or kiba dachi properly anymore. I on the other hand had been hammered on the tapering bone below the sternum I'm amazed it didn't break

That was Goju, under the supposed watchfull eyes of a reputable born, bred, raised and educated Japanese shihan. I switched to Shotokan just to see what it was like. I didn't see any problem, but one of the regular students in the new school spoke to me of the same carelessness taking place. Foolish that I was, I tried Kyokushin and lasted one class after having paid both a monthly and yearly membership

I tried venturing into something Chinese and had one Pakua Chang private lesson, but I already had a taste for karate, and a taste that will not go away to this very day. So, for most of these years since the early 90s, I had been doing the kihon waza and katas all on my own whether they were Shotokan, or Goju. It was just enough to save me from 3 fights that happened within one week from the same dangerous drunk. My left arm and both legs were both pinned down but I managed to bleed his cranial area quite a fair bit with my punches whilst losing absolute fear of anything. That experience however was with a drunk, and I personally don't know to this day how I would go against an armed multiple attack, which is quite common where I am. For one, I've never been hit with a whisky bottle on the head and I imagine that in itself could kill me if done properly from behind

The ugly side of human nature aside as described above, I truly love karate and much else about Japanese culture. I can take karate (and Zen) everywhere with me but not something like jiu-jitsu, aikido, wing-chun, or muay-thai. Many people tell me that I should take up full-contact kick-boxing if I really want to learn how to fight. Sounds fair, but what happens when you get old? I don't know if I'll live that long, but I'd hate to have to take on someone in the muay-thai style when I'm already 70 years old. My experience above also told me that one improves in the kwoon/dojang/dojo when one actually trains there, instead of being in hospital for 11 months of the year because some wannabe 'bruce lee' considered it his right to use you as his own personal cement bag during kumite

So, what exactly have I been doing most of this time? I'll tell you, and a lot of people will laugh. I've basically been guiding myself with karate books and videos, especially the manual KARATE DO KYOHAN. I spoke to infamous instructor Pat Macarthy over the phone and asked if he can recommend any reputable karate school (or teacher) this side of my world, and he said there was not one he could think of after I've explained of my experiences and mishaps

My thinking is this: the old Okinawan karateka must have trained in secret and supported each other. Within any one group, they all knew that they had to stick together and help each other out, but which did not include turning each other into invalids for life with any one blow

To give me a slightly better edge than what I've had in the last couple of decades, I've been planning on having private lessons on a once-a-month basis which would involve a lot of kumite (during that lesson), whilst the rest of the month would basically be on my own with my own training. Most formal karate classes that I had entered centered on warm-ups, lots of runnings and push-ups(and various other fitness stuff), basics(moving or stationary), katas, and pre-arranged sparring. Except for the last one, I can basically do the rest on my own

Once-a-month (private lessons) because that's all I can afford, and also because this period is something I want to use to see what my reaction is like during kumite. Sounds stupid? Yep. But, I've also been checking out various classes available, as they're more economical than private lessons plus the added bonus of varied fighting levels one comes across. A Japanese lady I've come across questioned my intention of going to her Shotokan school because of my one arthritic knee, but I'll just have to see. I really can't keep training on my own. A young Chinese girl recommended that I take up TaiChi instead because of my condition. Well.....(TaiChi?....I'm not sure...)

Do pardon the rant, and I'm glad to be a member of the forum

Thanks for your time

Mel

[ps1]

With respect, it sounds like you have no idea what you really want.

You talk about being upset with being struck too hard in the past. Then you talk about wanting to take Kickboxing, a sport with the sole purpose of knocking out the opponent. Additionally, you want to just do sparring once a month in private lessons. You're gonna get the snot beat out of you! I say this because anyone who only wants a private lesson once per month, with no other supplemental training, will not be taken as a serious student. In all reality, a respectable instructor would deny your request and certainly would not spar with you for quite some time.

I can understand your hesitation and concern for safety in your previous schools. I wasn't there and have nothing to go on but what you said. However, it's important to realize that when you are practicing an art that has punches and kicks coming toward you very quickly, you're gonna get hit every once in a while. When you do...it hurts! I've been practicing martial arts for 23 years now. I regularly go home with bumps and bruises. I've taken knees to the face and had broken ribs. However, in the grand scheme of things, that's not that bad over a 23 year period.

In Shotokan we always attempted to control shots to the head. However, the body was fair game. We would blast the body hard. It was even more brutal when I trained under anyone from Japan. Remember, they like to espouse the warrior mentality, fighting through pain and overcoming adversity. And don't get me started on Kyokushin! They are just killers...killers with AMAZING karate! But you're gonna take a hit in their classes.

My point here is not to discourage you, rather to inform you. In Karate, you're gonna get hit every once in a while. If you are not ready to accept that, perhaps you are choosing the wrong art form.

[Fish]

And actually, serious injuries are thankfully quite rare amongst more advanced students in most dojos, even those that have quite strong kumite regimes.

[Zanshin]

Hi mel,

First, welcome to the Forums.

Secondly, I'm afraid that I couldn't agree more with PS1 and Fish. You will find that 99% of people on this board share this opinion.

Whilst I dont advocate throwing beginners in at the deep end, Shiai/Jiyu Kumite whether it be full or semi contact, is a vital part of your Karate training and for many styles (like mine), it is an essential part of our conditioning as well.

That said, giving you the benefit of the doubt you may have just been unlucky with the few experiences that you have had. It could down to the instructors in those clubs being thoughtless knuckleheads maybe. More and more these days it seems that instructors substitute their lack of technical knowledge with fighting for the sake of fighting.

Unfortunately, I am not a great believer in self teaching from books or videos either. I agree that reference material is useful, particularly for people who already have a good basic grasp of the art they are studying, but this should always be used as a companion to dojo training and not as a substitute IMO.

In short, as has been said before, budo arts like karate are forged in the furness of the Dojo. It is the tireless, exhausting, bruising training under the watchfull eye of a knowledgeable instructor (who has been along the path you are walking) that will eventually shape you into a karate-ka.

But again welcome to the forums

[white owl]

Hi mel,

First, welcome to the Forums.

Secondly, I'm afraid that I couldn't agree more with PS1 and Fish. You will find that 99% of people on this board share this opinion.

Whilst I dont advocate throwing beginners in at the deep end, Shiai/Jiyu Kumite whether it be full or semi contact, is a vital part of your Karate training and for many styles (like mine), it is an essential part of our conditioning as well.

That said, giving you the benefit of the doubt you may have just been unlucky with the few experiences that you have had. It could down to the instructors in those clubs being thoughtless knuckleheads maybe. More and more these days it seems that instructors substitute their lack of technical knowledge with fighting for the sake of fighting.

Unfortunately, I am not a great believer in self teaching from books or videos either. I agree that reference material is useful, particularly for people who already have a good basic grasp of the art they are studying, but this should always be used as a companion to dojo training and not as a substitute IMO.

In short, as has been said before, budo arts like karate are forged in the furness of the Dojo. It is the tireless, exhausting, bruising training under the watchfull eye of a knowledgeable instructor (who has been along the path you are walking) that will eventually shape you into a karate-ka.

But again welcome to the forums

I totally agree.

Books are good, but they don't teach the lttle stuff like making sure hips in the right position for kicks, kata, hand techniques and even throws (for self-defense) which is so important. And does your book give you a partner to work with?

[tallgeese]

Yeah, I second the others, you're best bet is to find someone and train reguarly. Books are for reference and learning things you may not be regularly exposed to. Beside, even if you come across something you want to work on, how are you going to practice without someone to train with.

As for injuries, they happen. Espically in systems with hard training methods. It shouldn't turn you off, just accept it as part of what you signed on for. And, as stated, serious injuries are fairly rare. After years of doing this with some pretty good intensity and regularity, I can recall only two incidents that caused me lost time at work. That's not bad. Now, my time off the mat was a bit higher but that's to be expected.

I'd suggest not to be too worried about what you'll be able to do at 70. Train with what you feel serves your needs best now. Soak it in as long as possible. When your physiology needs to adapt to a new form or change you methods of training, you can do so. None of us will be able to make contact as we age like we do now.

I've already had to modify how I train. I'm not even that aged, but I don't recover from heavy contact like I used to. This needs to be spaced out now. Smarter not harder. I have no doubt that in 15 years I'll have to modify further or explor other regualar training options. But I'll still have all those years of experiance under me that I'm accruing now. That won't go away. So don't stress that factor just yet.

Find an instructor you like, teaching what you see to serve your needs best and dive in. Then use privates and books to suppliment the experiance you're gaining. Probibly would work the best.

[Dobbersky]

Hiya Mel

Martial arts especially Karate are striking arts and the best way to learn how to fight is to fight. I agree with everyone regards to the fact that you want an art to work on but don't know which direction to go to.

I would recommend Wado Ryu, this is a blend of Shotokan and Jujitsu, working more on the lines of Sabaki, Body rotation. As you are 70 I would think this would be good for you. We have a 72 year old in the class I attend and he does well, being a Brown belt.

Please Mel, don't get drawn into sigining any 'Membership' agreements until YOU are happy with the style - I wish you'd have asks us all long ago - I would have advised you against Kyokushin. Although I personally love the style and practice Ashihara karate which is an 'offshot' of kyokushin.

Muay Thai/kickboxing are about stamina and work well in the ring but not against street fighters unless you are excellent in it.

Karate kata bunkai is what you need. Sparring - unless you are competing - forget it. Karate is not about how 'hard' you are it is about the weak defending themselves from the agressors and muggers etc.

There are loads of styles out there that you could try but you gotta think about time - if you wanna learn quick, Krav Maga is a good system but it doesn't give you the same 'feeling' as karate.

Tai Chi (Chen Style) is also very good but this also takes time to learn

If there are any Martial arts shows that you can get to which have Multistyle exhibitions then I would go to them so you can see what goes on.

[Zanshin]

Hiya Mel

Martial arts especially Karate are striking arts and the best way to learn how to fight is to fight. I agree with everyone regards to the fact that you want an art to work on but don't know which direction to go to.

I would recommend Wado Ryu, this is a blend of Shotokan and Jujitsu, working more on the lines of Sabaki, Body rotation. As you are 70 I would think this would be good for you. We have a 72 year old in the class I attend and he does well, being a Brown belt.

Please Mel, don't get drawn into sigining any 'Membership' agreements until YOU are happy with the style - I wish you'd have asks us all long ago - I would have advised you against Kyokushin. Although I personally love the style and practice Ashihara karate which is an 'offshot' of kyokushin.

Muay Thai/kickboxing are about stamina and work well in the ring but not against street fighters unless you are excellent in it.

Karate kata bunkai is what you need. Sparring - unless you are competing - forget it. Karate is not about how 'hard' you are it is about the weak defending themselves from the agressors and muggers etc.

There are loads of styles out there that you could try but you gotta think about time - if you wanna learn quick, Krav Maga is a good system but it doesn't give you the same 'feeling' as karate.

Tai Chi (Chen Style) is also very good but this also takes time to learn

If there are any Martial arts shows that you can get to which have Multistyle exhibitions then I would go to them so you can see what goes on.

Reading your reply, made me re-read Mel's original post.

I must admit, I did not interpret from it that he/she was 70 years old, but maybe I got that wrong.

Mel, if your out there, are you able to confirm your age?

Z

[bushido_man96]

Welcome to the Forums.

You should look into these incidences of injuries that you discussed. Do these things happen weekly at these schools? Have you actually had much classroom experiences with these instructors? These are things that I believe you should look into. Go to the classes, and try to partake in some of them. This will give you a feel for what to expect.

[mel]

With respect, it sounds like you have no idea what you really want.

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MEL: It's Karate that I've always wanted

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You talk about being upset

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MEL: The word 'upset' sounds a little strong. I was however, concerned

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with being struck too hard in the past.

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MEL: There's a big difference between accidental, and intentional blows. Otherwise, I have no real issues with accidents as such

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Then you talk about wanting to take Kickboxing, a sport with the sole purpose of knocking out the opponent.

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MEL: The above was suggested and did look interesting, but that was as far as it got with me. I have a preference for things to do with Japan

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Additionally, you want to just do sparring once a month in private lessons. You're gonna get the snot beat out of you! I say this because anyone who only wants a private lesson once per month, with no other supplemental training, will not be taken as a serious student. In all reality, a respectable instructor would deny your request and certainly would not spar with you for quite some time.

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MEL:

1. In the Goju school, the Japanese teacher banned all below the most senior of brown belts from using leg techniques

2. Except for Kyokushin, I was lucky to get jiyu-kumite even just once a month in the Shotokan or Seido schools I attended

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However, it's important to realize that when you are practicing an art that has punches and kicks coming toward you very quickly, you're gonna get hit every once in a while. When you do...it hurts! I've been practicing martial arts for 23 years now. I regularly go home with bumps and bruises. I've taken knees to the face and had broken ribs. However, in the grand scheme of things, that's not that bad over a 23 year period.

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MEL: Then perhaps we should all be beaten (at any body part, no exceptions whatsoever) with baseball bats, wine bottles, heavy chains, and anything else on hand during class. We could then get used to such to the point that such blows would not affect us in any way in the middle of a street fight...yes?

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In Shotokan we always attempted to control shots to the head. However, the body was fair game. We would blast the body hard.

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MEL: Whenever you are in a street-fight, do you ever ask your opponent to hit you only in certain body parts?

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It was even more brutal when I trained under anyone from Japan. Remember, they like to espouse the warrior mentality, fighting through pain and overcoming adversity. And don't get me started on Kyokushin! They are just killers...killers with AMAZING karate! But you're gonna take a hit in their classes.

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MEL:....No pain, no gain....I wish you well in this......but I respectfully disagree...

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My point here is not to discourage you, rather to inform you.

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MEL:...which is why we're all on the net....to discuss...

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In Karate, you're gonna get hit every once in a while. If you are not ready to accept that, perhaps you are choosing the wrong art form

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MEL: I had no issue with that. However, accidental is different to intentional