When does learning really start?

[bushido_man96]

I see this time and time again, especially when we see talk of those who set a goal of attaining a black belt. Many practitioners are of the opinion that real learning doesn't begin until after achieving black belt. Many state that achieving black belt means you have now got the basics down, and the real learning can begin.

My question to the community is this: do you feel this way? Do you believe this standard? Why? Why not?

As for me, I don't think I hold to it all that much. I like to think that the learning really begins when your Martial Arts training begins. I also think the journey and the learning is true, from beginning throughout.

[ps1]

This is a good topic. I would like to add my opinion of what this means and provide a couple examples. First...let me describe black belt as someone who has trained for 4 to 5 years consistently (2 to 3 days per week). This is an important distinction because in some arts, the black belt can take 8 to 12 years of consistent training. In those arts, they often say their black belts are more than capable and have learned much of the art.

When a person says this it really refers to the idea that you have assimilated the basics to the point that you will become more technical and more strategic in your practice.

Example 1: The spinning/ turning back kick: Most arts have this technique in some form or another. Think of your average person just earning black belt. They can do the technique well. But have they developed every detail of it? Probably not. In order to make the kick effective you must develop the timing, strategy and footwork in a way that makes the technique useful to you. This can take alot of time. Some people have done it by this time...but I submit that many have not.

Example 2: The armbar from the guard: In BJJ one of the first techniques you learn is the armbar from the guard. However, it's not until about purple belt (approx. 4 or 5 yrs of training) that a person really begins to learn how to apply the technique and the strategies behind setting it up.

In addition, by the time a person earns black belt they are usually only just beginning to really understand the use of combination attacks. I've sparred many first degree (shodan) that throw combinations and don't seem to really understand why they are doing it. That is...they just go through the movements without any respect for how the opponent reacts. The experienced and skilled or "learned" practitioner pays close attention and is able to change/redirect the combo effectively.

Lastly is a strong understanding of what the art is really about. For example, in BJJ, many practitioners start out attempting to move fast and strong in hopes that it will garner them results. However, brown/black belts in the art understand and are able to simply move smoothly to counter such movements. They have learned how to use someones energy against them.

A "learned" practitioner of Isshin Ryu is able to get inside the oppoent not by forcing it. Rather they set the opponent up to let them in by moving in a certain manner. Chuan Fa opperates in much the same way. By attacking from odd angles the opponent will begin opening their defense to much more direct attacks.

In summation, I believe it is years of training, not rank, that determines how skilled a practitioner is likley to be. This is why the, "just beginning to learn" saying has become popular.

I have also heard stories about instructors holding back to ensure the student has loyalty to them as well. However, I don't put much stock in that line of thinking.

[Throwdown0850]

You start learning from day 1, doesn't matter how long, or what color your belt is...

[bushido_man96]

Well said, ps1. That is a very well-thought out post. And I see you points throughout.

I do realize that not every detail of many of the techniques will be worked out by the time one has attained the rank of black belt. I also understand what you are saying about learning through time. Experience is a powerful teacher, and time brings about experience.

Now, I question this: is the learning curve between 1st dan and 2nd dan all that much greater? Is that much more understanding garnered, do you think? I like to think that we can always learn something new, regardless of time in. However, I believe the learning begins to be more subtle.

[pittbullJudoka]

I can agree with everyone that's posted thus far. You do start learning at day one. But I also feel that you look deeper into each techniquie. You look for much more than just a fluid move. I personally get into the what if I turn this way. What if I stepped like this. Hey this move will fit in here. If miss this I've still got that.

As Ihave been told you have the movement down. Now go polish it and make it shine. Take the techniquie and make it your own.

[tallgeese]

I agree. Learing starts at day one, not at black belt level. In fact, your learning curve is probibly greater at the lower ranks than the higher ones. Early on, everything is new. Even standing.

I also don't think that black belt level should signify just understanding basics. You've put probibly 4-5 years in (for most systems I've had experiance with anyway), you should probably be past basics. I like to think of it as your 4 year degree of the martial arts.

As far as the learning curve post black belt, I think that there is certanly learning occuring. More than anything however, I think it's about time in system and dedication to an art. Espically past 3rd dan.

By third dan, your test should include big portions of teaching related skills. This ensures that you are capable of passing on all that you've learned.

Just my take. Good thread.

[Zanshin]

By third dan, your test should include big portions of teaching related skills. This ensures that you are capable of passing on all that you've learned.

I am not sure. For me, the dan grading is about Karate proficiency not teaching ability.

I always considered sandan as being an important grade to show a detailed knowledge and understanding of the art, combined with the peak of physical perfection. A convergence of fitness and wisdom as it were.

After sandan, wisdom and knowledge start to play a more dominant role over physical ability. There is no avoiding getting old I am afraid!

This is why many associations "award" yondan and above, based on merit rather than a physical test. Also in most traditional Dojo the sensei is ranked sandan or higher.

Getting back on topic though, absolutely, learning starts from the moment you first step foot into a dojo and it should never stop. As your understanding deepens, this opens up more questions IMO. Questions for which the answers are more challenging or more difficult to find.

I have heard it referred to as viewing your training as if through a "prism". Depending on where you are in your stage of learning / understanding, you will see things differently!

[G95champ]

At birth

First day of class

When you teach

take your pick

[Zanshin]

At birth

First day of class

When you teach

take your pick

No Brainer!.. first day of class.

[ShoriKid]

I think your lening from the first day of class. But, like many others, I think your learning from the level of black belt on as well. It's not that you just 'have the basics down'. It's that yourhave enough of a base to pick what you want to delve into. After you've hit shodan, you can really start to personalize your art. Yes, your doing this before as well, but you still have to stick more with seeing how things work from a straight up, by the book application first. If you don't, your likely to miss something. Sort of like ignoring everything past the fifth page in your science text just beause you've figured out how to balance a chemical equazion{man I can't spell today}.

The level of a learning past shodan is just as steep, sometimes steeper, by your own doing, than it was getting there. But, a great deal of that comes from your own wish to really dig into things.

At white belt, you learn ho to throw a reverse punch.

By green{mid-grade for whatever it is}, you know how to start putting hip rotation in.

At brown your gripping the ground with your toes and dropping the shoulder a bit to set the body into place.

At black, your seeing ways to cut down on the time/distance of the hip rotation and still have it in place and still link the rest of the body with the punch.

2nd dan+ your looking at ways to set the hand into the target and create openings so you can really apply that power you spent all that time developing.