The deadly "wrist" grab. What's the deal?

[bushido_man96]

In Daito (and Wado to a point) we practice Idori / Tachidori, where an attacker will endeavor to "neutralise" the use of your sword / tanto arm, by grabbing your wrist.

The "waza" that follows are techniques to escape from the wrist grab, utilising techniques that we all practice today... kote gaeshi, kote gatame etc.

This brings a good point to light. I wonder how much these moves would flow from the battlefield curriculum, though. On the battlefield, the opponents, as well as you and your troops, would already have the swords drawn, and it would be weapons combat. I do think that in civilian duels and sword combat, that these would prove more apparent.

[cross]

I also wondered this for a long time, until like you i found abernethy's material.

The problem with most wrist grab defenses is the context in which they are taught. Usually its something like "when someone grabs your wrist, you do this". But as its already been stated, people dont just walk up to people, grab them on the wrist and say "yeah, take that".

This "myth of the first event"(hock concept) causes problems with alot of people, because to isolate a skill(e.g. wrist grab defense) you have to focus specifically on that, but then people mistake the way its trained for the context its actually supposed to be applied in.

[bushido_man96]

Very well said, Cross. My DT partner and I have discussed these things at length; he likes to use the statement that you have to have somewhere to train it from. Then, we take it from the "wrist grab" and into more applicable ideas. It gives us a controlled starting point.

So, we begin out of context, but work it into context.

[cross]

Very well said, Cross. My DT partner and I have discussed these things at length; he likes to use the statement that you have to have somewhere to train it from. Then, we take it from the "wrist grab" and into more applicable ideas. It gives us a controlled starting point.

So, we begin out of context, but work it into context.

Definitely, once you work out all the ways in which to manipulate the arm/wrist of your partner from a wrist grab you can work the same principles from a number of positions and they dont really need to grab your wrist at all for the movement to be applicable.

[NightOwl]

In reality wrist locks are one of the more difficult moves to pull off and a notable size difference WILL make things a lot harder.

This is very true. I have a brother who is 5'10", and about 320 lbs. He is strong as an ox, too. If I try to manipulate his wrists in any way, I am pretty much screwed. About the only way I can begin to do so is by using lots of distraction/diminishing techniques, and then I might be able to pull something off.

Being big makes a big difference.

Yep. And that is what it takes to get them to work- very good setup. You don't need as much of a setup for simple attacks and takedowns, but people I have met who actually use wrist locks fairly consistently in sparring are few and far in between. Many ''sparring styles'' drop them outright all together for most of their curriculum.

An exception (sort of) is using wrist locks as a submission AFTER you have gain dominant position. For instance I've seen someone set up a triangle choke and combine it with a wrist lock (you don't want to make him angry). Again though this is mostly groundwork and not the standard standing lock that you usually see.

[Treebranch]

Wrist grabs get knocked a lot and for good reason: almost always they are taught as an instant kill defense move that can take down an attacker of any size.

In reality wrist locks are one of the more difficult moves to pull off and a notable size difference WILL make things a lot harder. Properly timed and set up they do work, however you often see them being taught as starter self defense techniques, and in that case there are many more simpler and effective things you can do.

Wrist locks are difficult for pull off especially if it's in a "Aikido" type scenario. The set ups for wrist locks or wrist throws are what's important and the size of the opponent won't matter all that much if you set them up correctly for it. Just like an armbar or any other BJJ lock will work on a big guy with the right set up and position. Once you really understand how to effectively set the wrist lock up, by position and balance...timing isn't that crucial unless you are catching the wrist from a punch. Catching a wrist from a punch is probably not the best way to execute a wrist lock. Wrist locks can be really usefull in real life ground fighting and stand up depending on your opponent. The more you have in your tool box the better in my opinion.

Another note about wrist locks is that if you have the wrist and your opponent is starting to regain their balance, hit them in the direction you want them to go in or turn the wrist the other way flowing with your opponent momentum. This takes lots and lots of practice. Just like any other lock....if you can't pull it off do something else.

[Zanshin]

I think it is important to remember that in order to apply the "Aiki" (harmonious flow of energy ) you have to at first react against the "te-dori", otherwise it doesn't work. So its a contradiction in terms really. For a split second you are pushing toward the direction of attack.

Unfortunately many people today see youtube clips of Aikido and instantly dismiss it as being weak because it doesn't look strong on the screen. Its one of those things that you have to feel for yourself really to understand how it works.

Z.

[tallgeese]

Joint position attacks on the wrist are very hard to utilize against a striking attacker however. Again, they can be a good tool and mentioned above, but they cannot be relied upon.

The wrist is a small joint that is at the end of a very fast moving attack. It's much easier to attack an elbow or shoulder with joint positioning from a punching attack than a wrist. They are further down the weapon and usually moving slower. Additionally, they are easier to move in on and isolate than a wrist. The down side is that they have more muscle around them and are more difficlt joints to damage.

From a stand up fight perspective, they really are more useful from an ugly in-fight where a semi-wrestling thing is going on than from a punch. The arms are usually in one place for longer and not moving as quick when they do move.

I really thing that wrist joint attacks come into their own when defending agaist weapons and it become necissary to control the weapon. Then, it's imparitive to get ahold of that hand no matter what. Given the need for control after gain the hand (and therefore wrist) they become an excellet option for this specific scenario.

[bushido_man96]

Hock has referred to the outside wrist lock/throw as the "little throw that won't go away." For the reasons that you stated above, tallgeese, this throw/lock is difficult to secure; much more so than say a chicken-wing type of hold, or a hammerlock or other arm or shoulder lock. However, Hock has stated that everytime he is teaching a seminar or clinic, he invariably hears reports of guys using it successfully in situations, and they thank him for covering it.

Interesting that it turns up like it does.

[Treebranch]

Hock has referred to the outside wrist lock/throw as the "little throw that won't go away." For the reasons that you stated above, tallgeese, this throw/lock is difficult to secure; much more so than say a chicken-wing type of hold, or a hammerlock or other arm or shoulder lock. However, Hock has stated that everytime he is teaching a seminar or clinic, he invariably hears reports of guys using it successfully in situations, and they thank him for covering it.

Interesting that it turns up like it does.

The principles for any lock or throw are the same. Control their balance, flowing into the throw, and apply the lock. Only apply the lock until you have their balance otherwise they can fight it. No balance, no strength. Practice, practice, practice. If someone knows the lock is coming they will react. That goes for all locks. Muscle a lock on if there's no other way, but that just means bad technique.