The deadly "wrist" grab. What's the deal?

[tallgeese]

I have actually got to employ them in actual scuffles from time to time. They are effective in limited application, usually from more of a controlling standpoint.

Again, it's not a primary attack I work for. But, it fcan be useful for certain things.

[ryukasagi]

The Wrist lock is about the only lock i know well, and it seems to work relatively well for me, i havn't used it much though, but the biggest problem i know of is that it's really easy to escape.

[stejitsu]

The Wrist lock is about the only lock i know well, and it seems to work relatively well for me, i havn't used it much though, but the biggest problem i know of is that it's really easy to escape.

indeed i rest my case

[joesteph]

. . . the biggest problem i know of is that it's really easy to escape.

I suggest it isn't the lock, Ryukasagi, it's the training.

In training, it's working with a willing, stationary opponent/partner, and you're going at a much slower speed than the wrist lock would be applied. Safety is the issue, and understandably so; when I've used speed, I've been reminded about the speed limit.

When I was learning my first one, my instructor explained that I wasn't holding on tight enough; she slipped her hand right out of it to show me. I then gave it a tight grasp, and that worked well, but other students don't grasp my hand tight enough, relying on my willingness to allow the wrist grab. They're afraid of hurting me/their partner, by a tight grip, and I've had to tell them to please grip tighter. I do it to them and don't cause injury.

When applying the wrist lock, I learned that bending the hand is not enough; there has to be a twist of the hand, that of the little finger side twisting "in," to really give control and pain--or discomfort when working with a partner. I apply it better with the teenagers than with the adults, the latter tapping almost immediately.

There's one wrist lock that I have to know but which I first learned from a DVD before being taught formally in class. Without realizing it, I had "customized" it from my DVD watching, and it's more effective than the version taught at my belt level. What's taught at my level is a "control" application, i.e., without the twist, and I can immediately see how it can be countered. When I put that twist into the joint lock and so prevented the countermove opening, I've both established control and can break the joint if needed. I find myself doing that lock two ways, official and customized; it depends on whether I'm being observed or not, and who my partner is. The reason for the limitation? I believe it's to teach us down the road (or up the belt level) how to counter a joint lock, and even how to counter the counter.

The wrist locks are sound, Ryukasagi, but in the dojo/dojang we're working with one-another, and there's the danger of injury. As a training complement, I've practiced these without a human partner, having BOB as my reference, and, using my imagination, that's when I use speed and a heavy twist--against an armless opponent. It works for me.

[joesteph]

So to give a starting point, to learn the principle behind the given technique, you learn from a wrist grab. . . .

Your posting fits into what I found out from my instructor . . .

I found out that I wasn't supposed to apply as much twist or "lock" into [a] joint lock [against the wrist grab] as I was doing . . . [T]his new one is supposed to be a control technique . . .

I immediately saw how to counter it . . . he agreed and then countered my counter . . . The purpose of knowing this move as a control at the lower belt level is so that it can be a jumping point to learning counters later on.

 

. . . the biggest problem i know of is that it's really easy to escape.

 

What's taught at my level is a "control"application, i.e., without the twist, and I can immediately see how it can be countered. . . . The reason for the limitation? I believe it's to teach us down the road (or up the belt level) how to counter a joint lock, and even how to counter the counter.

 

I knew this would start coming together.

 

While doing the newest of the defense against the wrist grab techniques, I worked on one in which someone has grabbed my wrist with both his hands. My response was to "turn the tables" to put him into a lock, and it struck me while doing it that I'd seen this before; not exactly the same, but very similar. Sure enough, I remembered the old "control" joint lock from the past, and the counter that I was shown when I discussed the move with my instructor.

 

What I'm getting at is that what we are learning now is not just a self-defense technique, but the counter to a different move, one in which are trying to control our opponent, he counters, and then we counter right back.

 

I'm sure at some point, this will be pointed out to us, but testing is coming up, and we need to know--and therefore concentrate on--what our test requirements are.

[tallgeese]

Remebmer too, that even though we all use them in a controlling manner, it is a secondary function of those positions. They are first and foremost designed to break a joint. Thus they are pplied with speed and force beyond what they are normally practiced with.

Any other use, and I'd guess we all use them for other things, is not as efficient in nature.

[joesteph]

[E]ven though we all use them in a controlling manner, it is a secondary function of those positions. They are first and foremost designed to break a joint.

I'm with you on this one, Tallgeese. In the posting I made, above, the first quote is from an older posting (p. 3 in the thread), leaving out that I had first applied the lock with the usual intend-to-break twist. My instructor corrected what I was doing, and the control reference with counters to be learned in the future being explained to me.

This is the art, and I'm expected to comply. But I disagree, knowing that I can keep the pain-compliance twist if I want to have control (or break the wrist), and the counter can't occur. When I practice it at home, the movements I make incorporate the twist; if I have the right partner in the dojang, I use that twist, just not obviously.

I believe that teaching counters is important, but it shouldn't sabotage a very good move that the lower belt is training, internalizing, and now has an implanted flaw. The reason this particular joint lock was chosen, as I see it, is because the opponent's arm is extended, putting distance between him and you, rather than the other joint locks, which have you just inches from one another.

[bushido_man96]

I have seen some of the joint manipulation techniques that work well with one hand or two holding on. After a while, you start to see them run together.

My DT partner and I use the idea that the wrist grab is a starting point for learning the technique. Once you learn it, you move on to other applications of it.

The key is, to move on.

[Treebranch]

Wrist grabs get knocked a lot and for good reason: almost always they are taught as an instant kill defense move that can take down an attacker of any size.

In reality wrist locks are one of the more difficult moves to pull off and a notable size difference WILL make things a lot harder. Properly timed and set up they do work, however you often see them being taught as starter self defense techniques, and in that case there are many more simpler and effective things you can do.

It's funny how practicing difficult techniques long enough makes them seem simple to someone that has drilled them 1000 plus times. It's not taught as a instant kill defense move by the way. It's a very weak part of the body and if you understand that the wrist lock happens by moving your whole body you'll realize how size really doesn't matter all that much. If he starts to resist, you stomp the knee or hip. They'll forget about the wrist at that point and you can crank it fast and hard.

Try it this way if you'd like. Face your training partner, grab his right wrist with your left hand for Omote Gyaku. Right when you do that, with your right hand smack him in the face to get him to flinch back, at that moment crank the wrist lock on while moving your rotating your entire body trying to basically stand next to him, right hip to his left and drop to avoid his right hand if he strikes. This has rarely ever failed for me. Practice makes permanent so practice it correctly.

I could say the same thing about arm bars. I've avoided so many I can't even count, but I don't doubt the effectiveness of an arm bar.

[joesteph]

For my green belt test, included in the wrist grab escapes is the escape against the two-handed grab of one of your wrists. I still think of these as training exercises, giving you a point of reference that's the wrist grab rather than, say, the lunge punch.

I've only been able to practice with a live opponent on-and-off, and there are three of these in the series that are the latest--and least practiced--of all the wrist grabs. When I have been able to practice with someone, I believe that they've been "cooperative" (which is necessary when you're just learning something new), but then last night I had the perfect partner, a guy who's about average height, but definitely over 200 lbs and with a large frame, maybe an extra-large one judging by his wrist size.

He's a white belt, and grabbed good and tight, messing up my smooth escape and counter in two of the three techniques. Obviously, he didn't have a copy of the script.

In the first one, I'm to drop my arm and weight in a certain correct manner so as to loosen the grip, then turn my hand and body in such a way as to pin one of this arms against his chest; next comes a control technique and an elbow strike. The most important thing to do is to be able to pin that arm, not simply free your wrist, or else the technique isn't being carried out; if you pin his wrist, you will be able to carry out the rest.

I was not dropping my weight correctly; I was not turning my hand and body correctly in terms of leverage; I was gripping a very large wrist and "muscling" the counter. Bad time in Bedrock. I had to work on this some more with him to get it reasonably right.

The second of the three he didn't know he was supposed to "lose" when grabbing involves dropping my arm and weight correctly again, grabbing his hand with my free hand, and use both hands to lift his now-grabbed hand. A joint lock would then be applied, followed by a punch to the solar plexus.

It was my incorrect weight drop and grabbing his wrist, not his hand, with my free hand that was messing me up. Instead of using two hands to apply the joint lock, I was using one, because I had seized wrong. I got into position for the punch and executed it, but the technique was done sloppy. I did do more practice and improved, but I'd love to work more on this one.

This two-handed wrist grab may or may not be something for me to be concerned about in real life; if someone were in exactly that postion with me, I'd rather go for his face (poke the eyes, break the nose, knock out his teeth ) with my free hand. However, in terms of training, it's an opportunity for me to learn my own body's control, and utilize technique rather than go for brute strength.