The deadly "wrist" grab. What's the deal?

[bushido_man96]

Good thoughts, Treebranch. Sometimes, in the chaos and dynamics of combat, you or the opponent (or both) may be out of position to a point where all you can do is muscle it, and hope for the best.

[Zanshin]

This is great demo by Toby Threadgill sensei, in which he demonstrates perhaps some of the possible origins of the wrist grab.

The first 2 mins or so show him performing Iai/batto sword drawing techniques. At 2:50 onward he demonstrates some really cool throws against weapon takes, leading on to tanto dori (knife) and then open hand defences.

Now this stuff is really old school (koryu), but you will notice that wrist grabs/throws/locks are (were back then) very abundant.

Controlling the weapon hand is key, and perhaps this process was so important that its application continued into the gendai arts of aikido and modern jujutsu etc. that we know today.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ibKCaHSJn4I

I know in my particular style, these applications and principles are very important.

Z

[bushido_man96]

Good point as far as controlling weapons goes. Even in my Medieval Combat manuals, I see this often, when the combatants would "come to grips."

[marksmarkou]

Completly true. Grabbing the wrist when someone reaches out is a natural reaction that nearly all people do. great point.

[tenshinka]

I know that most of us, in our MA careers, have been exposed to the commonplace "defense against the wrist grab" stuff. However, after seeing the cool things you can do to a wrist like that, you stop and wonder to yourself, "now why would anyone grab my wrist like that?"

Well, reading in Bunkai-Jutsu, Iain Abernethy put forth some interesting foresight as to how the "defenses against the wrist grab" came about. He describes using entering techniques when in a fight. These techniques are things like reaching to grab the throat, finger the eye, or grab the groin in order to get an attacker to get away from you. Well, a natural reaction to someone reaching for you in such a way would be to grab the wrist or hand to stop the attack. According to Abernethy, this is where the defense against the wrist grab would come into play.

After seeing and reading Abernethy's idea on the subject, it made pretty good sense to me. So now, when you see the wrist grabs, you can have a better idea of why the idea came along, and the original intent behind the attack.

Comments? Thoughts?

Well, I know there are a couple different schools of thought when it comes to the dynamics of technique integration.

Basically it was explained to me as a "starting point"...You break technique down into pieces to teach it...

For instance initially you focus on basic block-strike combos...Parry, cover, strike etc. Then as students progress they start learning joint manipulations and the like....

So to give a starting point, to learn the principle behind the given technique, you learn from a wrist grab.

When you have a good understanding of the technique...You can add it to combination, and with different attacks...For instance defense from a punch, you parry into a grab, cover and strike (to set up), and then perform the joint manipulation...

In Hapkido at least, when someone grabs your wrist, you almost always end up reversing it (escaping the grab, and re-grabbing)...

So the real starting point to the technique is when you grab the attackers wrist...

Thus, in rudimentary partner practice, the initiation is the attacker grabbing your wrist, the starting point is your counter, grabbing their wrist, followed by the technique.

fwiw,

--josh

[bushido_man96]

In Hapkido at least, when someone grabs your wrist, you almost always end up reversing it (escaping the grab, and re-grabbing)...

So the real starting point to the technique is when you grab the attackers wrist...

Thus, in rudimentary partner practice, the initiation is the attacker grabbing your wrist, the starting point is your counter, grabbing their wrist, followed by the technique.

fwiw,

--josh

That is a great way to look at it. I will consider this in my next Combat Hapkido session.

Thanks!

[joesteph]

So to give a starting point, to learn the principle behind the given technique, you learn from a wrist grab. . . .

In Hapkido at least, when someone grabs your wrist, you almost always end up reversing it (escaping the grab, and re-grabbing)...

So the real starting point to the technique is when you grab the attackers wrist...

Thus, in rudimentary partner practice, the initiation is the attacker grabbing your wrist, the starting point is your counter, grabbing their wrist, followed by the technique.

Your posting fits into what I found out from my instructor last night, Josh, as a good amount of time was spent on reviewing old joint locks and learning the new ones that we have to know for our upcoming test. Starting point? The wrist grab.

I thought I had one of the new joint locks right, since the last time I worked on it with partners, my wrist was free and I had a firm hold on my opponent in joint lock position. There are two strikes that come afterwards, meaning the joint lock is a means to an end. When I did the joint lock with a different partner yesterday, with my instructor supervising us, I applied the lock and was immediately told to let go by my instructor. She then worked with me separately.

I found out that I wasn't supposed to apply as much twist or "lock" into this joint lock as I was doing, even though it would be a stronger one. I was shown the way the lock was to be applied, different from other locks to break or wrench your opponent's wrist before strikes; this new one is supposed to be a control technique, a hold in the form of a lock.

I immediately saw how to counter it, and was respectful in asking about this, demonstrating slowly that an elbow bend ended control; she agreed and then countered my counter, and started to show me how it can then become a takedown. The purpose of knowing this move as a control at the lower belt level is so that it can be a jumping point to learning counters later on. We worked on the joint lock in the approved manner, with the strikes being the greater focus of dealing with the opponent. If using this in a self-defense situation as taught, you'd have to strike quickly after the joint lock, but that might be said to be expected.

Is it that with this particular joint lock, it's safer to stop the lower belts at this point, as a hold? I have a friend with a brown belt in Tae Kwon Do, and when I spoke with her about it, I found that she had no joint locks in her training at all.

I understand the reasoning, and I think that the wrist grab-turned joint lock counter that sets your attacker up for the follow-up shots has its merits, but if I were to use that joint lock in a real-life situation, I'd go full-blast.

[tallgeese]

I agree, you'd use the movement full tilt as a damaging tactic.

There's nothing wrong with working flowing from lock to lock, in fact, it's good training. However, for simulated self defense I try to always stress the importance of applying joint position as a destruction.

They can be used to set up strikes, but I'd rather use strikes to set upjoint position. Get a break, then move on. I'm always carful about actually trying to control someone with a small joint lock. Primarily, they were designed to destroy a joint (particularly wrists). They functino best in that manner.

[bushido_man96]

In our Combat Hapkido sessions, we use strikes as "distractions" to loosen up the grabs to facilitate easier locks. However I don't like the connotation of the word "distraction;" it makes me think of flies buzzing around your head or something. I much prefer the term "destruction;" if I am going to hit someone, I am going to hit with the intention of getting the job done with the strike. And if I don't, then I'll finish the job with more strikes or then into the joint lock.

[stejitsu]

Hya guys

The wrist grab as a few have already mentioned was allegedly, supposed to stop the drawing of the sword. We will never know how often people pulled this technique off for sure, but i have used this in a calming situation. I have 6ft and 18stone so im a big guy. I have trained in a few grappling styles, judo, akido but it was the ju jitsu i had a lot of wrist lock usage as it was the longest i trained at in a grappling art. We used the wrist locks as party pieces mostly and demonstrated these to people when they did a famous request''''show me'''' Great break falls were used as we all used to do great high flipping rolling falls and land with a loud bang on the mat. These people where truly amazed.

The situation i used it in was to stop 3 girls fighting each other. One had hold of a girls hair so that her knuckles were white, her grip was that hard, the other was sat on the pinned down girl. People tried to break it up and failed, i kindly applied an adapted wrist lock and lifted the girl out of the way via a lock on her wrist. I then released her to let the pinned down girl get away. There was no afters and people all got back onto their activities, drinking beer in pub

This may possibly help to calm a situation like this. In a real fight, not a staged '''have this on yr wrist''' simply do not work to any effect in a violent attack on yr self. Their are too many things going on and the last thing on yr mind is doing and twist. I came to realize this as now i train at a cross training club. For my 1st degree i had to spar 32 rounds all differing in combat. Boxing vs kick, boxing vs grapple, grapple vs kick,,,wing chun vs boxing , and ground grappling.

Real fights a wrist lock is sadly lacking, how many have thrown themselves into a breakfall to make the instructor look good eh? To rely on one is a fools folly.

interesting topic