The deadly "wrist" grab. What's the deal?

[bushido_man96]

I know that most of us, in our MA careers, have been exposed to the commonplace "defense against the wrist grab" stuff. However, after seeing the cool things you can do to a wrist like that, you stop and wonder to yourself, "now why would anyone grab my wrist like that?"

Well, reading in Bunkai-Jutsu, Iain Abernethy put forth some interesting foresight as to how the "defenses against the wrist grab" came about. He describes using entering techniques when in a fight. These techniques are things like reaching to grab the throat, finger the eye, or grab the groin in order to get an attacker to get away from you. Well, a natural reaction to someone reaching for you in such a way would be to grab the wrist or hand to stop the attack. According to Abernethy, this is where the defense against the wrist grab would come into play.

After seeing and reading Abernethy's idea on the subject, it made pretty good sense to me. So now, when you see the wrist grabs, you can have a better idea of why the idea came along, and the original intent behind the attack.

Comments? Thoughts?

[fleasome]

Most definitely.

I think a lot of people that say that nobody is going to grab you like that are people that get limited exposure to something like Tuite or other grapples.

We were as guilty as the rest of them years ago of teaching how to do the techniques and not teaching the "set ups" until later. So someone that went to a few classes or seminars learns the technique but never how it might come into play.

We are pretty adamantly explaining to the new students now that there are setups and show a couple for each technique.

One real common way is when you knock someone off their balance, common human reaction is to grab something for balance. Hopefully we've positioned our forearm for the grab.

[ps1]

I used to wonder the same thing. Until I started BJJ and see just how often a person will grab your wrist when you reach for them. Not to mention its use in attacking things such as an arm drag. Knowing wrist releases has been a huge help to me. Along with collar releases and others.

Fleasome brings up a good point that they are often taught out of context and with no set-up. That may be necessary to get down the technique of them. However, once the technique is sound they should be taught from more realisitic situations.

[tallgeese]

There certainly is a place for them in the context of training in self defense. The problem I see is that too many people get so caught up with trying to apply a joint manipulation that they forget there's a fight going on.

Watch someong doing hard attack/defense drills in a sparring type simulation sometime. Often, when the defender trys to apply the lock, if he fails at the inital application he will continue trying....all while the defender has begun punching away at his face.

They work best as another tool in the box so to speak. Also, they need to be taught as damaging movements, not mere locks. When a wrist manipulation, for example, is appled at speed, with intent behind it, you should be trying to destroy the joint so it can no longer be used to harm you.

After learning the application in a very controlled fashion and competency is acheived here, a more realistic dynamic can be applied like cross indicated. This could involve the joint slipping loose, the attacker countering with stikes or whatever. Anything to train the defenders mind and body to remain fluid during the conflict.

As always, I feel that these things are best applied with a stunning motion. A strike of some sort. Be aware that the use of this immediatly raises you up the force option list and may not be viewed by law enforcement as an appropriate response to a wrist grab.

Where the greatest strength of training from the wrist grab occurs, in my opinion, is the familiarization with destructive joint motions from a very controled drill. From here, it is very easy for a student to see how and why something works the way it does. After learing the movement in this kind of setting, it is much easier to go and apply it in a more contact oriented training. A note of caution on moving to this type of drill, be careful, it's how I detonated my wrist that to this day still gives me problems when I tweak it wrong, (or hit the heavy bag, or it gets cold out....you get the idea).

[RAZ]

I'm with Tallgeese on this one.

A lot of the drills for new students are toned way down to protect them. Why? They are going to go out and try it on their buddies.

I can't wait until we can have UKE-bot.

[ninjanurse]

Went to a Chin-Na seminar yesterday...got some new stuff regarding wrist and forearm grabs that basically address this same topic. "Grab and seize" goes both ways!

[bushido_man96]

Fleasome brings up a good point that they are often taught out of context and with no set-up. That may be necessary to get down the technique of them. However, once the technique is sound they should be taught from more realisitic situations.

I agree. This is what I have dealt with both in my Combat Hapkido training and in our TKD ho sin sul. My DT partner and I have been working towards more applicable ideas for our training.

There certainly is a place for them in the context of training in self defense. The problem I see is that too many people get so caught up with trying to apply a joint manipulation that they forget there's a fight going on.

Watch someong doing hard attack/defense drills in a sparring type simulation sometime. Often, when the defender trys to apply the lock, if he fails at the inital application he will continue trying....all while the defender has begun punching away at his face.

As always, I feel that these things are best applied with a stunning motion. A strike of some sort. Be aware that the use of this immediatly raises you up the force option list and may not be viewed by law enforcement as an appropriate response to a wrist grab.

This approach is pretty much the same that Abernethy uses in training; striking is more efficient, and you should be aiming to end the confrontation with strikes. If the opportunity for the joint manipulation shows up, then take it; if it fails, hit them again, or hit them on the way down. But don't go looking for the joint lock. Look to strike first.

[NightOwl]

Wrist grabs get knocked a lot and for good reason: almost always they are taught as an instant kill defense move that can take down an attacker of any size.

In reality wrist locks are one of the more difficult moves to pull off and a notable size difference WILL make things a lot harder. Properly timed and set up they do work, however you often see them being taught as starter self defense techniques, and in that case there are many more simpler and effective things you can do.

[bushido_man96]

In reality wrist locks are one of the more difficult moves to pull off and a notable size difference WILL make things a lot harder.

This is very true. I have a brother who is 5'10", and about 320 lbs. He is strong as an ox, too. If I try to manipulate his wrists in any way, I am pretty much screwed. About the only way I can begin to do so is by using lots of distraction/diminishing techniques, and then I might be able to pull something off.

Being big makes a big difference.

[Zanshin]

One reason that I understand about the wrist grab, and why it forms part of most "Nihon Jujutsu" training today is that it is a hangover from the koryu approach to budo.

Indeed the applications already mentioned are spot on, in terms of peoples reaction to a hand coming toward them with applied force (its your Aiki thing going on here, perhaps).

Also though, in days gone by, many wrist grabs were designed to stop you from drawing your sword or tanto.

In Daito (and Wado to a point) we practice Idori / Tachidori, where an attacker will endeavor to "neutralise" the use of your sword / tanto arm, by grabbing your wrist.

The "waza" that follows are techniques to escape from the wrist grab, utilising techniques that we all practice today... kote gaeshi, kote gatame etc.