Justification,...

[shujika]

You often hear “tales” of how “such & such” technique helped somebody take care of “such & such” situation, (I got “caught” HAVING to listen to one today!) but most of those “situations” could have been completely avoided to begin with IMO ( taking LE out of the equation here). All the arts love to boast about Eastern “holy-ier than thou” attitudes, calmness, self-control yet when I here most of those “tales” of how somebody's MA helped them handle “joe-shmoe” bad guy, my first thought is “why did you even care what this idiot said, much less enter into an altercation w/them?” (when they obviously had a choice whether or not to). AND (suprise,suprise) “they” never seem to call the cops afterword? If this individual was such a threat to you (therefore, the public in general) shouldn't the cops be informed of the situation?, If you were justified, you should have no problem with providing a statement to the police, and put this Low Life behind bars for the“common good”. In our classes, “Justification” is covered (what is,isn't and is questionable),speaking with law enforcement and/or the possible/probable legal action afterwords. I was curious about how “informed” (and in what way) most instructor's attempted to make their students “knowledgable” in regards to actions possibly taken aginst students because of “use” of techniques taught to them?

[tori]

In our manuals, we have an entire section assault, battery, torts, ... and the responsibility of a Martial Arts practitioner in a true self defense situation as opposed to a bar fight type deal (which none of us would ever be involved in). We even had a lawyer and police officer come to a special training where they explained what could happen to an individual involved in a fight where they used excess amount of "self defense" against an alleged attacker. I think it was an eye opener for many, as they thought they could defend themselves at any cost against another person.

[tallgeese]

I think that about any qualified instructor goes over this at some point, hopefully many points, during your course of instruction.

It's an important topic that can't be avoided when dealing with sd issues. I've seen it discussed, lectured, scenerio training done ect. And served as the LEO voice of reson sevral times.

I would venture a guess that most serious training centers go over this sort of thing.

[bushido_man96]

We even had a lawyer and police officer come to a special training where they explained what could happen to an individual involved in a fight where they used excess amount of "self defense" against an alleged attacker. I think it was an eye opener for many, as they thought they could defend themselves at any cost against another person.

I think that this is a very good idea. I have touched on these points briefly when I have had the opportunities to teach classes, but not much. I do think it is something that is very important when it comes to preparing students to defend themselves.

[Harlan]

We don't touch on it. That concern is always there...but left up to the individual to ponder on in their own time. As my ex-military husband likes to teasingly ask, 'Why do you study an art that will put you in jail if you use it?'

[tori]

You know, it is something you have to think about. If some drunk comes up to you and throws a punch at you, what kind of self defense are you going to do. Are you going to do a simple technique that will just put the person down to the ground and not really hurt them as much as let them know you aren't playing around, or are you going to do a technique that could potentially cause serious life threatening injuries? Having experience in Martial Arts does not give one the right to take another human beings life, even if it is in self defense. A police officer would be charged (i hope) if he fired his weapon on a suspect who stole something and took off running, causing no harm to others during his escape. An officer cannot use lethal force unless his life or others are in danger, so why should a MA be given any freedom in their actions if their life is not in complete risk of serious life threatening injury.

[ShoriKid]

I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate here and go on an old school end of things that isn't so popular anymore. So, with that disclaimer out there.

Why should you tolerate someone running their mouth if it comes to threats of violence or abusive language? Why should you tolerate them more when they are threatening your friend, yourself or say a wife/significant other? Do you have to wait for them to take the first swing before you can take action?

There reaches a point where verbal threats an assualts are enough justification to act when paired with threatening posture and agressive behavior. If you wait for that first attack, the other person is already taking all of the advantage to their favor. They know when the attack is coming, how it's coming and where it's going. You don't get to know any of them. And no matter how much you've trained, your reaction starts out a half step behind their action. That significantly increases the chance that your going to get clocked. While as an outside observer you may think they could have just blown it off, you may not have the whole picture and their action may have been the best they could take under the circumstances. It's pretty danged easy to play Monday morning quarterback for any fight, self defense situation, conflict. So, do you really know if they could walk away? Do you know if they had the full clarity at the point of the fight to know that that was their option? To paraphrase something often said, a lot is lost in the fog of conflict.

Now why don't they call the police if they are in the right? A lot of times involving the police, even if you are 'justified' is not going to help you, or anyone else out a great deal. We'll skip over how it will eat up your time and money if you end up in court over anything. There is the chance that the person being the idiot, and needing action taken agaisnt them, has more buddies present and when the cops show up to take satements, a half dozen people are telling them you sucker punched that one guy who was just minding his own business. The people who weren't paying too much attention to the loudmouthed idiot and didn't hear him threaten you repeatedly or see him getting in your face and trying to back you into a corner just saw him stagger back and maybe saw the second follow up punch. Suddenly, your the bad guy, your the one going to jail. Or, everyone goes to jail. Your the average joe, you just wanted to go out somewhere and relax. This other guy started running his mouth. Now your both sitting in jail, and you could lose your job, pay fines etc.

Now, having plaid the devil's advocate, I'll throw out something else to chew on.

How many people run their mouths. Make threats and puff out their chests and make threats precisely because they are sure no one is going to do anything to them about it? No one is going to say anything to them or do anything about their agressive posturing. That they may be able to get away with slapping someone around or shoving people around without the threat of concequence. As they say, for evil(or agression/disrespect) to prevail, all that has to happen is for good men(or women) to stand by and do nothing.

Now, I'll step back and wait on the fur to fly.

[tallgeese]

No fur, don't worry .

You bring up two different issues. One is a verbal match only, where the individual is simply running his mouth. It is unfortunate that there are people in our society who operate in the fashion. If that's all there is to it then no escalation is warranted, no matter how irritating they are.

Now, when you add aggressive postuing and/or threats of violence, you've changed the rules. Now, a pre-emptive action may be in order. No, you should never let him swing if you can help it. Certainly don't let him hit you first. But, and this is big, make certain that you can articulate why you did so. What did you see that tipped you off? What threats was he making? Ect. That's what keeps you off the hook.

Always call the cops. It's better if they here it now rather than four hours form now when the idiot who was threatening you call them to tell them that you beat him up for no reason. This is when the fog really starts to set in. Remember, articulate.

After having seen dozens (probibly way more) of incidents like this, I can tell you that what gets people jammed up is not the inital reaction. Not ever have I seen anyone get in trouble or arrested for defending themselves. I know, eveyone has a horror story. All I can say is after having delt with nearly this exact situation many times, and having been a back up officer on countless others,I've never actually seen anyone go to jail for defending themselves.

What gets people in trouble is after they defend themselves. ONe guy makes an attack. One guy defends and knocks the attacker on his back. Now he's got space. Insead of leaving and calling the cops, the "defender" now throws a few kicks into the "attackers" ribs while he's down. Guess what, we now have a new attacker. At this point, both guys will, in all likelyhood, go to jail.

So, my advice/views, tolerate the running of the mouth, be prepared to prement an attack when warrented. De-escalate after you've controlled the attacker. And tell someone in authority what happened with good articulation of the facts.

[bushido_man96]

Shorikid brings up a great point about the pre-emptive strike, and tallgeese brings up a great point about articulation. They go hand in hand, and you can't train one without teaching the other.