Matt Stone Posted October 9, 2003 Posted October 9, 2003 True, no touch is not practical now for an agressive situation, but that's why you train in the dojo. To work on techinques over and over till you get it right. I've seen it take over a minute for someone to be knocked out, I've seen it take seconds, and I've seen people completely flop at it. It is not a practical thing to use in a fight at this stage because there can be too many factors to make the technique flop. But, that is why you practice, study, and try to perfect techniques. It's also not something dwelled apon every training session. As I've seen it and tried it, it's once every couple of months we try something. And I'm sure that this is brand new information, never before seen in the martial arts world, either hidden for century upon century or only recently uncovered by Dillman and crew... Or not. If it is not practical for use, why bother. I am certain that this kind of quackery has been brought up before, and tossed aside just as quickly, even when people were far more believing and gullible. Don't get me wrong - I believe in qi, practice qigong, study internal styles. I believe many things not necessarily supported by current scientific explanation are possible. But this is just past the point where I draw the line at complete nonsense. Darth Dillman? Darth Mooney? Why not...
Tao Posted October 10, 2003 Posted October 10, 2003 I know that he did go to a number of seminars, and he had some private teachings with Oyata. I'll see George next weekend and I'll ask for specifics. I have seen a few pictures on the walls of George's dojo of both George and Oyata together. One even of them at George's dojo. But I'll ask.
Tao Posted October 10, 2003 Posted October 10, 2003 Matt, If it works for you, run with it. If it doesn't, move on and find what does. It's not brand new information. Just trying to insert pressure point application to kata bunkai. I had 17 hand forms and 3 weapons forms with the Wah Lum style and they didn't mean squat. I had thrown them out for a while because they were more of a cardio workout than a martial art. When I started adding the pressure point ideas to them, it opened up a whole new meaning to my katas. I've started practicing them again with new questions and getting answers from them. When it comes right down to it, who cares what George says, or Oyata. Have you found something that works for you?
Shorinryu Sensei Posted October 10, 2003 Posted October 10, 2003 George was competing at a tournament when Sensei Soken aproched George and asked him if he knew what has was doing in his kata's. George said " I'm blocking a kick......"and so on. Hohan then spent ONE weekend teaching George, but did not show him all the "secrets". Hohan kicked the crap out of George showing him a number of techniques and he gave George a book that contained alot of pressure point information that he, his wife, and close students have been working on since. I believe Erle Montague was another to get the same book from Sensei Soken, and has gone in his direction with the same information. OK, big question here. What tournament? Where/location? Again, to my knowledge, O Sensei Soken wasn't in the habit of walking up to a stranger and handing out books about the advanced inner workings of our system to anybody, let alone a stranger that he met at a tournament. From what I understand, if he did walk up to Dillman and talk to him about his kata, and if he did work with Dillman for a weekend, then yes, I'm sure Dillman came out of that training a much more humble person than when he went in. Also, I assume Dillman speaks the native Okinawan language or Spanish, or had a translator because O Sensei spoke basically no English, and little Japanese (he hated that language). Just to make my position clear here, I know you're one of Dillman's students, and I respect you for that. However, amongst the Shorinryu Matsumura Seito/Orthodox community, Dilman is considered as phony as a $3 and boasting about things he can not prove. Also his claims of working for a weekend with O Sensei Soken may be be true, but IMHO after nearly 28+ years in this art, that he learned all of these techniques and how to apply them correctly and effectively, is just pure rubbish! Anybody, from any system that does similar techniques will be able to tell you the same thing. Also (repeating myself here) the thought that O Sensei Soken would take a basically complete stranger and non-student of the art, and teach him these techniques is again...rubbish! What I suspect is the case, as many before me have said about Dillman, is that yes, he met O Sensei Soken, POSSIBLY worked with him for a weekend and was shown a few BASIC tuitte techniques, liked them and decided to claim that since O Sensei Soken was one of the most authentic and well respected of the "old masters", he'd start name dropping and making false claims about learning all these secret techniques. An easy thing to do since Dillman was in the USA, and O Sensei was in Okinawa and quite old by this time. I'm sure Dillman wasn't worried that O Sensei would hop on a jet and come to the USA to kick his butt! BTW, just on a personal note, there is no one touch knockout such as Dillman claims in our system (or any other I'd bet). I verified that years ago with people much higher and more experienced than myself in this system. Obviously, the same with the "no touch knockout". Mystical, made up CRAP to get people into classes and seminars, and yourself on the cover of magazines! Hey, it's working!!! My nightly prayer..."Please, just let me win that PowerBall Jackpot just once. I'll prove to you that it won't change me!"
Shorinryu Sensei Posted October 10, 2003 Posted October 10, 2003 [ Darth Dillman? Darth Mooney? Why not... I like that! The next thing we're going to hear is that Dillman can rip a heart out of a mans chest with his finger tips! But of course, he can't show you that, because it would kill you! Convenient, huh? My nightly prayer..."Please, just let me win that PowerBall Jackpot just once. I'll prove to you that it won't change me!"
Sauzin Posted October 10, 2003 Posted October 10, 2003 I know that he did go to a number of seminars, and he had some private teachings with Oyata. I'll see George next weekend and I'll ask for specifics. I have seen a few pictures on the walls of George's dojo of both George and Oyata together. One even of them at George's dojo. But I'll ask. I would like that, please do update this topic when you get that information. On another interesting note, there has been a lot of hesitance lately among high ranking Okinawans when asked if you can have your picture taken with them. You may be referring to one of the infamous pictures that caused this. The only two things that stand between an effective art and one that isn't are a tradition to draw knowledge from and the mind to practice it.
Shorinryu Sensei Posted October 10, 2003 Posted October 10, 2003 I would like that, please do update this topic when you get that information. On another interesting note, there has been a lot of hesitance lately among high ranking Okinawans when asked if you can have your picture taken with them. You may be referring to one of the infamous pictures that caused this. Yes, I'd like to hear about that also please. I've also heard that about Okinawan masters in the last couple of years. You think it's because they're seweing a lot of people having their picture taken with them, hen claiming all sorts of things that just aren't true? That would make sense. It's sure been done before! I have a picture of myself with Ed Parker, taken about 2 years before he died. I was invited to attend a seminar he gave. It was interesting and nice to meet the man, but I would never make any claims about he or his organization and what I learned, other than what I just said..I went to a seminar given by him once. Learned nothing I didn't already know BTW...lol. My nightly prayer..."Please, just let me win that PowerBall Jackpot just once. I'll prove to you that it won't change me!"
Tao Posted October 10, 2003 Posted October 10, 2003 Dillman was four-times National Karate Champion (1969-1972) and during this period was consistently ranked among the top ten competitors in the nation by major karate magazines. During his nine-year competitive career, Dillman claimed a total of 327 trophies in fighting, forms, breaking and weapons. George was no bum off the street, Sensei Soken knew who he was. "From what I understand, if he did walk up to Dillman and talk to him about his kata, and if he did work with Dillman for a weekend, then yes, I'm sure Dillman came out of that training a much more humble person than when he went in. Also, I assume Dillman speaks the native Okinawan language or Spanish, or had a translator because O Sensei spoke basically no English, and little Japanese (he hated that language). " Yes, George has said that he came out of that room very humble. Walking in thinking he was this big karate champ and having this little Okinawan dude kick his but. He said he couldn't understand much of what Hohan had said, but sure knew where it hurt when he touched him. As far as perfectly learning every technique, obviously not. When you go to a seminar and are shown multiple techniques, you can't remember all of them, but you get new ideas that you can work on and grow from there. He never claimed that he walked out of there knowing everything. Actually he came out of it questioning his own abilities as a martial artist because Hohan beat the crap out of him so easily. "BTW, just on a personal note, there is no one touch knockout such as Dillman claims in our system (or any other I'd bet). There are many techniques within everybody's katas. If they were just repetative movements without much meaning, then why have they been around for hundreds, even thousands of years? Some of the Wah Lum forms I have learned are about 2000 years old. Unfortunately my Sifu did not did not go indepth on meaning to the movements we were doing so it was just repetative motion. "What is this move for Sifu? You broke some one's foot. How? Nevermind, next form." That's all I got for an answer "Next form." I started learning about pressure point application, and wow! A whole new meaning went into my forms. The mantis hand seemed pretty basic, but there is a one touch ko that I stumbled apon that works great, and have done it many times since. Any one who has studied ppnt's knows that a combination of 3 points will create a knock out. Be it within the cycle of destruction,or on the same meridian. Well, were I hit with a rolling mantis hand lines up 3 points and down they go. Everybody has a great potential. All you have to do is disect the movement of your katas, ask questions, and look for answers. If something works for you, great! Use it. If it doesn't, then disregard it and move on. As Bruce Lee once said "Seek your own truth".
Shorinryu Sensei Posted October 11, 2003 Posted October 11, 2003 Again, I'd like to know where this tournament was that Dillman met O Sensei Soken? Preferably the city, possibly the state? Country? O Sensei Soken wasn't interested in tournaments or sport competition in the arts, nor are many practioners of Shorinryu Matsumura Seito karate now days. Sure, some do, but tournaments aren't stressed at all, and are not required for advancement in most schools. This is why I am so very curious for that information as to the exact location where Dillman met O Sensei, since I don't believe that O Sensei attended more than possibly a very few tournaments in his lifetime. I see no resolution in trying to convince you that O Sensei Soken wouldn't have taught Dillman much, if any, in the way of adanced pressure point, or tuitte techniques. Since I had never met O Sensei and can only speak from 2nd hand knowledge from people that have trained extensively with him..I'll continue my belief, based on my conversations with past students of his, that Dillman is a fraud in his claims regarding O Sensei Soken. My nightly prayer..."Please, just let me win that PowerBall Jackpot just once. I'll prove to you that it won't change me!"
Hohan-1 Posted October 11, 2003 Posted October 11, 2003 Shorin Shinshii, You're beating a dead horse with blinders on! This guy needs cerebral soiling or something. Tao that's cool that you do Dillman Karate. You stick with it and have fun believing the hype. Just don't try and use that stufff for real SD! Those so called secret notes that Dillman has anyone could get if they tried hard enough. I have the same ones with the anterior and posterior PP diagrams with corresponding point names and attached descriptions of what to do to effect them and what effects will ensue. Fusei Kise use to give them to all of his students. I got mine from Ron Lindsey. If you want to learn real vital point techs you have to go to the source- Okinawan tuite or Chinese Dian Xue. In one weekends time you couldn't even learn how to effectively apply ONE let alone more of these principles. It takes years bro, yeeeeears. Just like you don't get authentic Italian cuisine at the Olive Garden, you can't learn orthodox Okinawan techniques from an unorthodox, eclectic American "do" style. This is training you can't "reverse engineer". You either learn from a reputable instructor or you'll keep shooting blanks. There is one thing you said that has some valididty to it. There is ONE one-touch K.O. that works sometimes. I won't detail it here but it's akin to a "carotid massage". I'll leave it at that. That's the facts Jack! Go to the source, learn the real deal or just shut your trap. Really, you are sounding quite ridiculous. Oh, and being any type of Karate competition champ means diddly in true Okinawan karate. Fordarillas guy! (Shhhh! Your teacher is a scheister) Traditional=EternalNidan, Hakutsurukan
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