Blackbelts - Plain or Embroidered

[bushido_man96]

Take this thread for example, I think the general concensus is that cjgotti should keep his rank... yet why should we all say that if we are adament that blackbelt doesn't matter and we should all be happy to wear white belts? Its all very well for people to say that they don't care about rank but if you were all told tomorrow that you were no longer allowed to wear your belt and that you must now be a white belt, I wonder how many of us would truly accept it.

I really wouldn't mind this situation. I have always been of the opinion that by wearing belts and establishing rank like this, it tends to make everything go down the ladder, as far as information goes. For instance, an instructor isn't usually going to ask a lower rank colored belt for assistance or advise on a technique. He would look to a peer or higher rank. Where as those styles that don't use ranks to denote class position or knowledge (at least within the style) would tend to be more open to the suggestions of anyone else in the class. Like Wrestling, JKD, and even DT classes.

I think that many stylists that are young in their careers/journeys tend to hold on to the meaning and symbolism of the belt and rank; I did at one time, I know. Now, the knowledge that I have gained means more to me than the rank that I have, and the belt can be taken; the knowledge can't.

[NewEnglands_KyoSa]

I think that many stylists that are young in their careers/journeys tend to hold on to the meaning and symbolism of the belt and rank; I did at one time, I know. Now, the knowledge that I have gained means more to me than the rank that I have, and the belt can be taken; the knowledge can't.

Ugh, i agree. You know how many times i have to break up a shoving fight in my kids class, over which of the four red belts gets to be the highest one?

Kids have no sense of seniority, because they don't understand the concept(most of them) which doesn't help much. But obviously most kids are bent on getting their next color or next stripe, i mean we all did it, don't get me wrong. at one point in our lives all our goal was to get a black belt, i mean that's everyone...there's nothing wrong with it. but i agree, my kids get out of hand sometimes.

[DWx]

I do think its stupid argueing over something as meaningless as where you get to stand in class and who is more senior etc. but ranking has its good points too. Otherwise why do people use it? It makes it easier to break up a curriculem applicable to how far each student has progressed and helps set intermmediate goals to work towards. I like having a ladder system as far as my own learning is concerned. It means I know which people will be able to help me with a technique or concept and which people I should be asking for advice. Although a lower belt than myself may have some good ideas on what I should do, more likely a higher grade than myself would have answers. In some sense its just like being in school, I wouldn't ask a 2nd grade kid for help with my maths homework, but I may ask someone in the 12th grade. Similarly you wouldn't teach a 2nd grade kid calculus, you'd wait until they'd passed into 3rd, then 4th etc. just like you don't teach a yellow belt some more advanced concepts until they've passed the appropriate level and are physically able to do them.

I really wouldn't mind this situation. I have always been of the opinion that by wearing belts and establishing rank like this, it tends to make everything go down the ladder, as far as information goes. For instance, an instructor isn't usually going to ask a lower rank colored belt for assistance or advise on a technique. He would look to a peer or higher rank. Where as those styles that don't use ranks to denote class position or knowledge (at least within the style) would tend to be more open to the suggestions of anyone else in the class. Like Wrestling, JKD, and even DT classes.

I may be wrong of course but I didn't think that Wrestling, JKD or DT had set syllabuses. You don't need belts to track progress, you just teach what you feel is appropriate at the time or what you want to cover. Most Eastern MAs have set curriculems so belts work to track that progress and make it easier to know what stage a student is at.

[NewEnglands_KyoSa]

I do think its stupid argueing over something as meaningless as where you get to stand in class and who is more senior etc. but ranking has its good points too. Otherwise why do people use it? It makes it easier to break up a curriculem applicable to how far each student has progressed and helps set intermmediate goals to work towards. I like having a ladder system as far as my own learning is concerned. It means I know which people will be able to help me with a technique or concept and which people I should be asking for advice. Although a lower belt than myself may have some good ideas on what I should do, more likely a higher grade than myself would have answers. In some sense its just like being in school, I wouldn't ask a 2nd grade kid for help with my maths homework, but I may ask someone in the 12th grade. Similarly you wouldn't teach a 2nd grade kid calculus, you'd wait until they'd passed into 3rd, then 4th etc. just like you don't teach a yellow belt some more advanced concepts until they've passed the appropriate level and are physically able to do them.

Ah, yes. Agreed. It's funny because two different people could jump in on this forum right now and argue both sides equally as well.

"Hey we shouldn't hold rank in such high regard, blah blah blah...."

and

"Hey, rank has a meaning and purpose and without it we'd be lost and all killing each other over who knows what, blah blah blah..."

So when i think two arguments like that can be equally debated i think the topic is just simply a necessary evil. Ranks, Belts, Seniority are necessary evils.

[bushido_man96]

Although a lower belt than myself may have some good ideas on what I should do, more likely a higher grade than myself would have answers. In some sense its just like being in school, I wouldn't ask a 2nd grade kid for help with my maths homework, but I may ask someone in the 12th grade. Similarly you wouldn't teach a 2nd grade kid calculus, you'd wait until they'd passed into 3rd, then 4th etc. just like you don't teach a yellow belt some more advanced concepts until they've passed the appropriate level and are physically able to do them.

In this scenario here, you are assuming that the person's rank (or lack thereof) is relative to the experiences that they have outside of the dojahng, which may be considerable. By viewing the rank on the waist, many will automatically discount their knowledge base, in regards to perhaps, say, forms knowledge, or the like.

I may be wrong of course but I didn't think that Wrestling, JKD or DT had set syllabuses. You don't need belts to track progress, you just teach what you feel is appropriate at the time or what you want to cover. Most Eastern MAs have set curriculems so belts work to track that progress and make it easier to know what stage a student is at.

You make a good point here, but at one point in time, none of our Eastern styles had the set curriculum or belt ranking system that goes along with them. These are all innovations of the last 150 years or thereabouts. And Wrestlers don't learn how to Wrestle by just being shown a move and then told to roll around a while, and then move onto something else. It still has a structured learning environment, just without the ranks. JKD and DT would be similar; you work a concept for a while, understand it, and then move into other related concepts.

[brokenswordx]

I recently went back to my dojo and found out that all the black belts have embroidered belts with their name and the dojo name in yellow. I hope that's not a requirement.

A person gets their belt based on skill. Also how you carry yourself come into play because you can be a black belt and still get no respect.

[NewEnglands_KyoSa]

But for the most part, i don't think you should automatically get a lack of respect based on what your belt looks like. And i mean, of course there's exceptions to this. I'm going to be wary of what you're all about when you walk into my school with a hot pink belt on or with super grand master emroidered down the side. But i don't think belts necessarily denote disrespect?

[bushido_man96]

But for the most part, i don't think you should automatically get a lack of respect based on what your belt looks like. And i mean, of course there's exceptions to this. I'm going to be wary of what you're all about when you walk into my school with a hot pink belt on or with super grand master emroidered down the side. But i don't think belts necessarily denote disrespect?

The old adage "never judge a book by its cover" comes to mind....

[DWx]

Although a lower belt than myself may have some good ideas on what I should do, more likely a higher grade than myself would have answers. In some sense its just like being in school, I wouldn't ask a 2nd grade kid for help with my maths homework, but I may ask someone in the 12th grade. Similarly you wouldn't teach a 2nd grade kid calculus, you'd wait until they'd passed into 3rd, then 4th etc. just like you don't teach a yellow belt some more advanced concepts until they've passed the appropriate level and are physically able to do them.

In this scenario here, you are assuming that the person's rank (or lack thereof) is relative to the experiences that they have outside of the dojahng, which may be considerable. By viewing the rank on the waist, many will automatically discount their knowledge base, in regards to perhaps, say, forms knowledge, or the like.

That depends on what my questions were. A lot of questions will be just applicable to lower belts as well as higher belts, but if you take the forms example I would still tend towards asking the higher grade the question. That doesn't necessarily mean that the lower belt wouldn't have equally as good if not better input but as a student, the higher grade most likely would have studied said form longer and hopefully would know more about it. Also if forms play a part in testing, the higher grade would have been the one to have already passed an exam with the form and so I would assume that the examiner deemed their form a correct portrayl whereas on the other hand the lower belt may not have even learnt it yet or is in the process of learning it.

Depending on what you mean by "experiences", are a person's experiences outside the dojang really applicable to something like forms? Sure if they'd experienced a number of self defense situations it would be applicable to something like self defense training (and personally I'd welcome input from anyone on something like that), but IMHO I don't think experience will have a great bearing on something like form knowledge or how to execute a technically correct side kick or what the correct proceudure for something is. Of course rank is not propotional to experiences outside of the dojang but experiences outside of the dojang will have a bearing on some topics and virtually no bearing on others. For the purposes of some questions a higher rank would be better to ask.

I may be wrong of course but I didn't think that Wrestling, JKD or DT had set syllabuses. You don't need belts to track progress, you just teach what you feel is appropriate at the time or what you want to cover. Most Eastern MAs have set curriculems so belts work to track that progress and make it easier to know what stage a student is at.

You make a good point here, but at one point in time, none of our Eastern styles had the set curriculum or belt ranking system that goes along with them. These are all innovations of the last 150 years or thereabouts. And Wrestlers don't learn how to Wrestle by just being shown a move and then told to roll around a while, and then move onto something else. It still has a structured learning environment, just without the ranks. JKD and DT would be similar; you work a concept for a while, understand it, and then move into other related concepts.

Yes but because we are using these new inovations whereby at green belt you learn this technique and by red belt you have to be able to do that technique I'd say it was safe to assume that the person with a certain belt would most likely be more qualified to answer a specific question relating to a curriculem. In fact you could consider it an advantage over Wrestling, JKD and DT. I could have a problem, walk into a room full of people I didn't know and be able to instantly divide the room up into those people who would most likely know my answer. Depending on the question you may be discounting a few peoples' knowledge base but you get your answer and can go away satisfied. If I walked into a room full of people I didn't know I would have no idea who I should ask and would end up asking everybody until I got an answer. Ranks work for some systems and are not appropriate for others, but for a system with a rank those with a higher rank are probably going to know more within that system.

[bushido_man96]

If all of your questions pertain to the system, and to the curriculum, then you are most likely correct in assuming that your questions will be better answered by the higher ranks.

However, as a 3rd dan, I have asked for technique advise from a 1st dan, and have got some good advise from such inquires. I try to always stay open-minded when looking for advise.

As far as walking into a room full of people, and asking questions about things; usually, you would only have to ask a few people before they could most likely point you in the right direction of someone who specializes in what you are asking about.