Dojo Challenges

[ShoriKid]

There is something I've been mulling over for ohh..about a decade now. Having mellowed out since this was last an issue for me, I was 22 or 23 at the time, I was brought back to the subject of dojo challenges by a pod-cast I was listening to a few weeks back. The two instructors, neither a full decade older than myself, were discussing the times they had seen such occurances take place, what the circumstances were and what the results were, as well as their personal stances on them.

Now where I come from is a school that, while it didn't condone such things, I don't think it would have gone down well. Heck, I think I was part of a sort of semi-dojo challenge a few time, only with a modern and more subtle take. My first sensei may not have openly done challenges in the time I was training there, but that's a different story. I'll ask my questions before sharing my odd, sort of, experiences.

What is your view on dojo challenges? Are they good or bad for the martial arts in general? We'll take the assumption of being lawyered to death after one isn't going to happen. The ideal set up being one can issue or receive a challenge without fear of legal reprisals on the part of the loser, or heck, the winner.

What are the reasons that challenges are good or bad? Why have these once time honored traditions of 'defending the rice bowl' and testing the would be masters fallen away in Western society? I'll say that historically, Western Martial Artists have a long and rich history of challenging one another to fights to settle who was best, which methods "worked" and other such things. George Silver had the old English version of the Gracie challenge standing, with swords and other weapons, for any master of defense that operated in England.

Would you take part in a dojo challenge, on either side, if you were able to do so without fear of the hordes of lawyers that coud be more realdily summoned that gang members in a Jackie Chan beat-down? For what reason would you issue or respond to said challenge?

To relate my own experiences with what could have been seen as dojo challenges, in the modern take, I take you back to the about...good grief, 10 or 12 years ago while I was high brown or early black belt level at my home Shorin Ryu dojo. The first was high brown, an exchanged student came into the dojo to train. He was from a Korean form and had about 7 or 8 years of training. The first few nights he worked out on the bag and kicking shield without taking part in class drills. A few nights of basics and he was back on the bag. He was fast and had some nice kicking combinations when working the bag. He didn't seem impressed with doing kihon work. When we finally sparred, he asked to take part and was allowed to. This was a tall lad, leggy and perfectly build for a kicking style. I...am not. I was paired with him for the first round of sparring and we geared up. The contact and sparring rules were explained to him and he said he understood. We lined up and the first thing I did was step off the line and into a jump side kick. It was nice, but he bounced away. I kept moving forward and scored as well. A few more exchanges and we were back on the line. He tried a jump spin kick, but a check to his ankles as he initiated foulded that up. At range he landed a couple of quick kicks which were well targeted. I closed and fired rapid punches, in response to which he turned his back. Thanking my lucky stars he wasn't kicking the day lights out of me, I pounded his kidneys. Break was called and after we lined up again, I had finally learned to bridge the gap quickly and in doing so, had him turn his back to me again after a short flurry of punches. Kidneys! I punched away and we were broken up again. He explained when he was told it was bad to put his back to a person in a fight that they had been taught to turn their backs if over whelmed as a sign to break off the action. A few more exchanges and we were set down. I alo saw our instructor take it to a black belt that had come from a rival school to train with us during his first sparing class of the night. I got him next with both of us being told to put something on the punches. We went at it pretty hard with blurred vision and body bruises being the result. And this was my best friend.

I also once went to a dojo that opened up just out from my home that claimed to be teaching the same style of Shorin Ryu that I had my shodan in. This was a month or so after their opening. I did kata work with them, corrected where they differed from the Master's text and asked a few questions. Never sparred them, though as a punk shodan, I admit I was itching to in order to get a real apples to apples comparison of my abilities vs. other black belts.

Enough rambling, lets see what you folks think. I'll bring in my answers to my own questions in a bit.

[bushido_man96]

Ah, its nice to see a George Silver reference. I do know that Silver issued a challenge to those who were teaching the new fencing style in England, as opposed to the older style of Swordsmanship that Silver stuck to. The challenge was never met. Whether he challenged other schools of defense that were similar to his, I don't know.

As for myself, I don't like the idea of going to another school and issuing a challenge, nor would I like someone to come in and issue a challenge at my school. Could I get beat? Sure. Could I go to another school and win? Maybe not. The thing is, I think it is more of an ego-soothing action than anything else.

Now, I am completely for schools getting together and exchanging ideas in training methods and what not.

[tallgeese]

Back in the day I was party to somthing along this line (hey, we can't all be proud of some of the stupid things we've done).

The school I was training in during my college years had a bit of a rivalry with a cross town school. Both sides of this would sometimes gear up and go to the others "open sparring" night. I think we all used the "another night to train" argument to justify why we even went over to the other school know how the feelings went between us.

We would then proceed to beat the tar out of one another, until it was a) time to go and none of us had gotten homework done or b) someone got hurt. My 20 year old ego was pretty happy that I had it in me to go and lay it on the line or throw down with anyone who'd walk in our door.

The thing is, I never got any real training done. We didn't work on anything during these sessions, we just tried to beat each other up. All I really ever got out of it was a few brused ribs and a concussion or two. Not to mention that I probibly ruined several potental friendships with people very like minded to myself that might have become very close. We were all pretty guility of it, on both sides.

Certainly, I'm not advocating avoiding sparring hard with other schools. I agree with bushdo man that cross training is vitally important to todays fighter. But from experience, I'd say that the proper motivation has to be in place on both parties.

So, no, I wouldn't take part in this kind of thing. I'd like to think these days that we're all on the same side, or should be. The realist in me knows better, but we should all be training to deal with the dudes out on the street who don't have the restraint we've all developed throgh our training. That should make us more willing to help each other accomplish the same goal.

[The BB of C]

People from other schools come into our Isshin-Ryu school all of the time. I don't sense any rivalry or real challenges. It's open sparring as far as I can see. And it's been good. I think I would do a dojo challenge if ever given the choice. But to prove myself to myself more than anyone else. I think they can be good and degrading to martial arts. It all depends on the situation.

[NievesOSK]

In northeastern Ohio we have a lot of people visiting various dojos. Some dojos actually have open fight nights that are fun. Granted we pound, but in most cases there is 1) an understanding that you stepped on the line and should be ready to defend, 2) you are not going to get killed or beat to a pulp.

Of course, there is always the one...

About 2 months ago a guest TKD black belt came to our school to spar on a Saturday. I was actually in Columbus area competing and didn't get to attend. I found out from my master instructor and my wife that he took it to all of our advanced children ranks and our adult beginners...and was cocky about it. Ever since then I have been itching for him to come back.

Well this past weekend I was called on the floor to test for my Yondan. My MI has done this to me the last 3 testings. No advance notice. So, I am always ready to test. One of the dojo mottos is: "every day is a test". Indeed. I digress...

This TKD was on our panel and was asked to spar against me. Joy. His first move was the typical back fist reverse punch combination many point fighters use. Both blocked. He had a look of shock that I neutralized his speed and stopped his attack cold. Then I proceeded to tear him apart. Chudan, Judan, Gedan kicks, punches, etc. all broke through all of his attempts to hit me. He hit me twice (once with a kick to the head and another time with a backfist). After those two strikes, I changed my guard to a more upright Okinawan position from my usual boxer's stance and he didn't adjust. Other than that, in the 5 minutes we sparred, he didn't touch me. I could see it in his eyes that he couldn't figure me out. The coup de gras came at the end when he attempted a high kick, I did a circle block under his leg+caught his leg with my forearm and shuffled forward him while sweeping his base leg. I finished with a down tsuki to his jaw.

I am adamant with students and peers about being humble and honorable about one's Martial Arts. But this one of those times where I was beaming and told my MI, hell yeah that felt good.

Osu.

[ps1]

This still happens at BJJ schools. First it happened because no one believed BJJ was effective. Most people no longer believe this. However, many "MMA" and "Grappling" schools seem to have popped up out of nowhere. Their instructors have no credentials and claim to be experts. It's nothing to head down to one and defeat the instructor.

I believe this is good, however. It's done to ensure BJJ doesn't get to the point that many other arts have. With fake masters spewing nothing but nonsense out of their mouths. I'll also point out that it's a different story when you walk into a school and the instructor readily admits that they are just learning; in contrast to when they claim to be an expert and really aren't. In the later scenario you destroy them and walk away. In the former...you destroy them...but then teach them how you did it. That adds to the substance of the art.

I, for one, believe it's been too long since the traditional martial arts school has done this. For that reason, many have begun to lose touch with what is important when it comes to the physical side of the art.

[The BB of C]

This still happens at BJJ schools. First it happened because no one believed BJJ was effective. Most people no longer believe this. However, many "MMA" and "Grappling" schools seem to have popped up out of nowhere. Their instructors have no credentials and claim to be experts. It's nothing to head down to one and defeat the instructor.

I believe this is good, however. It's done to ensure BJJ doesn't get to the point that many other arts have. With fake masters spewing nothing but nonsense out of their mouths. I'll also point out that it's a different story when you walk into a school and the instructor readily admits that they are just learning; in contrast to when they claim to be an expert and really aren't. In the later scenario you destroy them and walk away. In the former...you destroy them...but then teach them how you did it. That adds to the substance of the art.

I, for one, believe it's been too long since the traditional martial arts school has done this. For that reason, many have begun to lose touch with what is important when it comes to the physical side of the art.

Amen brother.

[NightOwl]

This still happens at BJJ schools. First it happened because no one believed BJJ was effective. Most people no longer believe this. However, many "MMA" and "Grappling" schools seem to have popped up out of nowhere. Their instructors have no credentials and claim to be experts. It's nothing to head down to one and defeat the instructor.

I believe this is good, however. It's done to ensure BJJ doesn't get to the point that many other arts have. With fake masters spewing nothing but nonsense out of their mouths. I'll also point out that it's a different story when you walk into a school and the instructor readily admits that they are just learning; in contrast to when they claim to be an expert and really aren't. In the later scenario you destroy them and walk away. In the former...you destroy them...but then teach them how you did it. That adds to the substance of the art.

I, for one, believe it's been too long since the traditional martial arts school has done this. For that reason, many have begun to lose touch with what is important when it comes to the physical side of the art.

I've heard that mma gyms can get into the whole 'rival' bit, especially considering that the gym teams often face each other at competitions. As such I've heard stories of people getting into trouble for training at other gyms.

As for challenges, I would say that there is nothing wrong with cross sparring (in fact that is a good thing for all parties), but a 'challenge match' sort of implies that there is some underlining animosity. If that is the case then DON'T fight in either of your gyms, in an area where nobody else is around, or show up randomly expecting a fight. Be professional and find a third party gym that is willing to host you and let out your frustrations there.

[brokenswordx]

I only heard once when 2 or 3 guys came to my dojo to settle the score with a guy who had beat one of top black belts in a tournament kumite match, but this happened before I joined.

[unknownstyle]

never had an experience with this, i think the only reason i would ever challenge another teacher would be if he was an obvious fraud and just taking advantage of people who dont know the difference between real training and a scam, or if my teacher was badlt disrespected